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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

False Prophet: I swapped Rosie and Largo's places in the Five-Man Band line, as it made a lot more sense to me. Rosie is The Lancer, as she's shown to be Welkin's opposite in temperament in almost every respect: she's hot-headed, he's deliberative; she's a singer, he's a scientist; she hates the Darcsen, his foster sister is one, and so on. She's definitely a Cool Big Sis though. Although Largo's unit type is called "lancer", he makes much more sense as The Big Guy (class 2), since he comes to respect Welkin much faster than Rosie, and he is one of the biggest character models.

Wild Knight: I saw this page and thought it was kind of messy and required some cleanup. Then I visited this discussion page and found it used to be even worse. Sigh. Faith in humanity meter dropping another several points...

//later: Okay, seriously people, this is one of the most poorly-maintained pages I've seen on this site. What is it about this game, is it because it's on the PS3 or something? I've never seen any other page about a work go through so much shit (tropes are a different matter)! It's such a wonderful game - it doesn't deserve all these Thread Mode explosions and natter and poorly-spelled angry rants about Character Derailment and flanderization, we get it already, JEEZ. </angry rant of my own>

I may regret this loss of temper in the morning when I haven't had a couple of drinks. Then again, I might not. You jerks.

//even later: ...okay, yeah, sorry about that, that was uncalled for. Still - blind_dead_mcjones in particular, could you start using spellcheck? It'd save me a big headache.

You think this site is better than sliced bread, until you read stuff like this and remember this is still the same type of online people having the same type of online argument... some of these arguments... jesus...
  • I wonder if the creators themselves thought as deep as those on this page do... Or rather, we might be thinking way too much for our own sakes.

Gloating Swine: Cut Because someone obviously stopped paying attention about chapter 15 or so.
  • Why cut? Chapter 15 doesn't say anything in particular about the Darcsen Calamity... And what we're talking about "a perfectly good plot" means, I believe, either that the topic isn't explored further than mentioning the truth behind it at most, or that the unfair fate the Valkyria forced upon the Darcsen isn't made fair even by the end of the game. Although, if one's to argue, the facts in the ending that Zaka's doing well what he aims to, and Cordelia is still accepted by her people even after the revelation of her true race kinda shows that Darcsens become accepted more in the society. Anyway, the point is that they left perfectly interesting plot thread untouched (or maybe at least in this game), so... I don't think that trope's out of place.
  • Because the repercussions of the Darcsen Calamity and the reality behind what actually happened are pretty much the main driving force of the plot for the last few chapters, and by stopping Maximillian and the Valkof you directly prevent the exact same thing from happening again. How is that an example of wasting a perfectly good plot?
  • Well, if one's to put it that way. Although, even IF it seems like one of the driving forces for the last chapters in eyes of some, it surely didn't become the main driving force.
    • From all the cutscenes I've seen, the characters did display surprise upon hearing the truth about the calamity, but none of them seemed overly bothered about making it right. It's something that's been done already, and to them, it could be as important as a stranger getting shot somewhere they can't see.
    • And the overall meaning of the Darcsen Calamity is as said before, the Valkyria doing Ragnite experiments and blaming the Darcsens for the side effects they created. Maxie didn't take the Valkof to oppress the Darcsens again nor does he need to; he already has a Darcsen camp in Fouzen, and they're as important to him as ants. His goal is domination, as he stated since as long as he's shown on screen.
      • The "Darcsen Calamity" was the effects of Valkyrian weapons (and possibly suicide attacks like Selvaria's) during their invasion of Europa 1600 years before the plot.
    • Gallia wasn't aiming for Darcsen liberation either. Remember, the Gallians are fighting for their home since the beginning, and that goal isn't deviated one bit. (By "deviating from the goal", let me point out the overall plot of Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones. It started with a superpower invading a smaller country, much like VC. But you didn't think you'd be fighting a demon king as the last boss, did you?)
    • And speaking of the last few chapters, aren't they more about Alicia and her dilemma about her powers? At least up to Chapter 16, anyway.
      • Until Welkin persuades her not to explode, yes.
Also, I feel that, in order to expand the said topic further (and maybe made it right again while we're at it), there's something else the writers are most probably gonna need: a whole new plot directing towards that topic.
  • It's also worth noting that the Darcsen Calamity happened 1600 years before the events of the plot. It's ancient history, of interest to a few scholars like Faldio, but only mildly relevant to most people.

Echo Garrote: Is it just me, or are Coby (The old shocktrooper with a mustache and a blue bandanna) and the Aged Gentlemen, subtle Metal Gear Solid Expys for Old Sanke and Big Boss?

Rebochan: I just cut an insane amount of Conversation in the Main Page. Guys, if you have to have paragraphs on paragraphs of whether a trope is an example...it's probably not. And if you need that much discussion about it, there is a reason there is a discussion page.

Rebochan: I made another sweep and still haven't gotten most of it. I would also like to point out the irony that the game itself never makes out any of Alicia's accomplishments to be diminished by her dream of being a baker and marrying Welkin, two things she explicitly wants to do before she ever becomes a solider. Yet whoever keeps adding all the entries implying that Alicia is a Stay in the Kitchen sufferer of Chickification completely marginalize her into a stock stepford wife. Nevermind that, say, Welkin's entire dream is to be a teacher, a traditionally feminine occupation.

Also pulled out an insane amount of ranting about Faldio - it really just felt like one person hated that scene and wanted to Entry Pimp the hell out of it.

The missing tropes:

     BALEETED 

    Discussion related to this. Feel free to contribute, folder is to keep discussion page of reasonable size. 

Danny V_El_Acme here again with a simple question for you guys: was I the only one who was annoyed at the fact that at no point in the game was Welkin PROMOTED? In terms of military accomplishments, the closest parallel in real life I can find is Richard Winters, and HE got promoted step-by-step from Lieutenant all the way to MAJOR. Jeez, Welkin should at LEAST have been promoted to Captain, and Varrot should have been Major herself! It baffles me! Oh, and another thing: Squad 7 is THE BIGGEST SQUAD IN MILITARY HISTORY. A Squad is about 10, 12 people tops. Welkin had pretty much an entire PLATOON under his command.

Rebochan: I did always wonder about that. Especially after he plowed a tank through a river!

Rebochan: Regarding the Everything's Better with Princesses trope, was Cordelia ever properly coronated even after she took power by default? That could explain why she's still holding the title of Princess.

Eddie Van Helsing: Rebochan, I think Cordelia retains the title of Princess because Gallia is a principality governed as a constitutional monarchy.

Rebochan: Aren't constitutional monarchies still "ruled" by Kings and Queens though?

Spoon Of Evil: To answer Danny V's question, I believe Welkin never got promoted solely because of the way the military was organized. From what can be gathered, the Gallian military is divided into two categories, the main army and the militia. The main army consists of Gallia's standing "professional" soldiers and is led exclusively by aristocrats while the militia consists purely of citizen volunteers, reservists, conscripts, and the army's leftovers. From Damon's example, it is a safe bet to assume that the generals don't want to be humiliated by being upstaged by "lowly peasants" like Welkin and Squad 7. Why do you think the militia keep getting sent on suicide missions?

Rebochan: I did some cleanup. I'd just like to say that there is no way to get Les Yay out of Rosie and Isara. Every scene with those two is done with Largo around too. Couple that with Welkin's Nakama speech, and the only way to get Les Yay is to start setting up Crack Pairing. None of the scenes between those two is even remotely homoerotic.

Infinix: Rebochan, don't you think you're cutting a bit too much of the stuff? Sure, being compact with the text is nice, but there are stuff which are more fun as one bullet under another. Just look at Five-Man Band and Battle Couple you just cut... We're not The Other Wiki, so I don't think leaving some fun and humor in the text is that all bad... And also, not every Troper notices all the examples for a particular trope, so... wouldn't combining those be a bit harsh for the contributors?

Rebochan: I was mainly focusing on how hard it was to read the page in some of the longer and crazier examples, hence I was trying to compress some of the longer pieces and get rid of a lot of the irrelevant stuff. There's a lot of issues with lists of natter on this wiki that get to be so long it's hard to actually read it. Also, the reason I messed with Five-Man Band was because, while accurate as a trope, the breakdown was way off (you can't have someone as "The Chick" when there's three women and none of them are girly girls). Battle Couple could be said, with humor and flair, in one example and not three bullets.

I also tend to find that 9 times out of 10, "This Troper" examples add absolutely nothing to the example except telling a pointless personal story and then, of course, leaving no real meaning to why anyone should care what an anonymous person thinks. These are frowned on - this may not be The Other Wiki, but it's not a forum either. Since there are discussion pages for the tropes, personal stories or other informal chat should go here instead, where you can actually have a conversation.
  • Infinix: True. I have no arguments about what you said. Just that... See, me and my friend started the page for VC, and I was used to seeing this page as how it's been for quite a while, so it felt a bit awkward for me to see lots of stuff revamped all of a sudden. Hope you don't mind my rant. But hey, lots of pages are like that. By the way, I was wondering if we might need a Troper Tales page for VC (if it's appropriate at all for a game)...
  • Rebochan: I can certainly understand the feeling. I just wanted to fix up the page so it was still fun to read while being easier to read. I'm not sure if Troper Tales pages are used for something like this or not. I've certainly spun off more than a few for normal trope pages, but not one for a piece of media like this. Theoretically, discussion pages should serve for that. In practice, discussion pages tend to just discuss the page itself. I know there's been a lot of effort to fix that, since obviously people want to talk about the game, but the main tropes page isn't the right place for it.


Rutee: Removing an example from "Awesome but Impractical", because it's really just "Awesome, but unrealistic"; Lances are very effective anti-tank weapons.

  • Also, the anti-tank lances. Just look at the things! There is no feasible way to hold and fire one safely and accurately. There's a very good reason why real world anti-tank weapons are usually shoulder mounted. That might also explain why the Lancers have the worst accuracy of all trooper classes...


Rebochan: Did a little clean up again. Eliminated all of the This Troper comments, and pulled a few tropes that didn't fit.

Moral Dissonance: Strangely, Welkin. His quote accompanying the order "Damage Boost" kinda shows that he has a rough side to him as well.
Welkin: "Hurting them means us surviving. Be merciless!"
  • Happened all the time with Welkin for me. "I personally killed about twenty people today! Hey look, a beetle!"
  • Well, they are fighting a war, so it's either kill or be killed... and Welkin knows it all too well. So, it didn't sound like moral dissonance to this troper. Having an Heroic Sociopath like Jane on the squad, on the other hand...

Justifying Edits in the natter seem to indicate this isn't the case. Welkin is running a militia - the whole point is to kill the other side.

Not really, unless the characters were derailed within the anime continuity itself. Flanderization seems to cover the changes from the series itself.

  • Fridge Logic: What is Isara doing at that party? She's a Darcsen, and thus is more likely to get shot than be let in there.
    • Nevermind that, what about the pig?
    • Actually, the anime has quite a bit of these. I mean, this troper knows that adaptations shouldn't be a cookie-cutter copy of it's source material, because why adapt it anyway? But a few of the happenings in the anime that seem okay at first ellicit this:
      • The anime seems to goes off and on about the racism; one minute, racist characters would argue about the Darcsen and openly scorn them, then the next everyone's perfectly amiable in the background. It then abruptly comes back when they go to Fouzen, where Rosie acts like more of a Jerkass than in the video game.
      • What purpose did having the Empire be at the party?
      • And speaking of the party, what's the Princess doing having white hair?!
      • Why was the disdain against Maximillian turned into a plot like that? And if it was executed in such a fashion as it was, why is it never spoken of again? And what's with Karl? Wasn't Johann good enough to be Selvaria's underling?
      • What was with the whole interview episode? It felt like an okay Breather Episode at first, but then... it felt like a drug trip or something. Why were Captain Varrot and Alicia so against it?
      • This troper thought the inclusion of the rest of Squad 7 would look interesting, but with the way the anime did it, they're all pretty much background Red Shirts that I probably couldn't tell from one another had I not played the game.
      • Why change Franz for that Mikhail guy? It makes The Empire less sympathetic than that sequence was supposed to make them out to be.
      • How did the resistance in Fouzen get all that hardware? In the game, Zaka said how hard it was to get components for the explosives to blow the bridge, but now, not only do they have guns, but Darcsens actually participate in the fighting despite how they should be tired and malnourished from the work the Empire puts them through.
      • From the same episode, who the hell brings a sniper rifle into a tank?

Ahem. None of these are actually Fridge Logic. And the giant breakdown into complaining about the anime adaptation is completely irrelevant. Also note that the Fridge Logic page encourages putting moments of this on the Headscratchers page, which is fine for a discussion like the above. The main page isn't.

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Philweasel: Ok, the anime page is getting stupid now. I just had someone put a Justifying Edit on a Your Milage May Vary entry. Seriously guys, I love the anime and yet managed to put in quite a bit of detail about its flaws so the least people can do is lay off the OBVIOUS FROTHING HATRED.

Wild Knight: Agreed. I haven't even watched past the first two episodes, but certain people could really lay off the whining.

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Red Stormtrooper: Since we lack a WMG Page proper, and one little thing doesn't warrant it, has any besides myself and about one other person wondered about what happens if you hit an active Valkyria with a Tesla bolt? Me and aforementioned other person have come up with the conclusion that it would force a Final Flame on to the Valkyria, which opens up a lot of Jerkass opportunities. (For instance: Instead of Welkin proposing to Alicia after she calms down, Alicia is put on the bad end of a Tesla Tank, or something). I ask because I'm in the process of writing a VC/Red Alert 1 crossover, and simply need the input.

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