Discussion Characters / StrangerThingsMainCast

No, he's not racist. Certainly not that can be confirmed from anything that's been presented in the show itself. He doesn't say a single thing to or about Lucas that he couldn't say to the rest of the Party. He never singles out Lucas in a way that can be construed as racist while the rest of the Party is around. Furthermore, Word of God outright denies it, and Dacre Montgomery himself confirms that the only reason he goes after Lucas is because Lucas just happens to be the character that he sees Max around the most.

Also, your example of Billy's father calling him a faggot torpedoes your entire damn argument because it has nothing to do with what Billy actually is. It makes it very explicit that his father is homophobic.

So yes, Billy not calling Lucas a nigger or using another slur (IE, Troy calling Lucas "Midnight" in season 1) does matter.

If it belongs anywhere, it's a Base Breaker and should go to the YMMV page.

tl;dr: Same sentiments as OP.

Montgomery apparently doesn't think his attitude is based on racism or being in the closet. I can't find a source by the Duffer brothers that reflects the same sentiment (if anyone's got one though, please share!), and apparently the humanizing scene with his father was at Montgomery's suggestion. That points to Word of Saint Paul, not Word of God. If we follow this, the Ambiguously Bi entry should also be removed.

Even besides that, though, I'm of the opinion that an actor's opinions don't automatically invalidate what comes across onscreen, and I believe at the very least, it can be listed with "implied." As Forbes put it;

Finally, I assumed everyone in the main characters page was listed because they were billed as main, but upon checking cast listings, so are Matthew Modine (Brenner), Cara Buono (Karen), Sean Astin (Bob), and Paul Reiser (Owens). Since these aren't really in the core monster-hunting ensemble either and Brenner, Owens, and Bob contribute more to the narrative than Billy, I also support moving him to the secondary characters page.

(EDIT: Sorry about the editing, I got ninja'd by ^ and had to fix up my reply to reflect that)

The problem is it's all interpretation. We don't have him using a slur. He never actually says "those people" at any point in the series. The full quote is:

"There are certain type of people in this world that you stay away from, and that kid, Max, that kid is one of them."

That's all we have. We're given no other context in any of his other scenes, and however you choose to interpret it, it's nothing that can only be said about Lucas. Especially when Billy spends a lot of their interactions controlling or threatening Max over everything she says and does. He's controlling and abusive period, and Lucas's race is not a factor at all.

The simple fact is that it's clear from the considerable debate over this that there's no consensus, and there won't be until we get more from the characters in the following seasons or if the Duffers themselves weigh in (and yeah, that Forbes article is just an opinion piece. An editorial. He has no more authority on what the Duffers intended than any of us here).

So like I said: Unless Billy starts dropping "N" bombs or openly using slurs (and the one unambiguously racist character, Troy, did just that in season 1) this is heavily YMMV, and if anywhere belongs as a Base Breaker.

Here's Montgomery's Newsweek interview:

Every action onscreen is deliberate — the creators deliberately showed Billy glaring at Lucas, not Dustin/Mike/Will; he grumbles about "those people" in reference to Lucas, not Dustin/Mike/Will; in the finale it's Lucas he picks up against a wall, not Dustin/Mike/Will. The creators can't be unaware of how this comes off, and coupled with the line above, I don't think one can really write off racism as an explanation just because he's not dropping slurs or dressed in Klan robes. The removal of a slur in one line notwithstanding, the script's writing was obviously intentionally racism-coded.

So it really boils down to how much interpretation we're willing to allow with the final product; I don't want this debate to drag on either. Like I said above, if we adhere to Word of Saint Paul, that and the Ambiguously Bi entry has to go. But as a compromise, I think if the character page can tolerate speculations about how Joyce got an Atari, it can tolerate a line about how Billy singles out Lucas in particular. Maybe under Would Hurt a Child.

Isn't speculation what the WMG and Headscratchers pages are for? And this subject is already on the Headscratchers page. I'd also argue that speculations on Joyce and the Atari should be moved to one of those pages as well.

And the fact that certain language was excised from the script offers a stronger argument against inclusion, because it establishes a deliberate change in direction for how the character is meant to be perceived. And that would fall under What Could Have Been.

My takeaway from it is different. If they changed that specific line and little else, then there was intended to be some racial tension/subtext present in Billy's earlier interactions with Lucas despite what the actor says. (Per the trivia page the actors were Acting in the Dark per episode, don't know if that's true for S2 or Billy in particular though).

Anyway, I personally think that the subtext isn't so light that it can be classed as speculation just because he's not raining n-words or openly admiring the Ku Klux Klan, but I think we're going to end up agreeing to disagree on this one. At the very least, the character page can stand a mention of how he singles out Lucas, because he really does.

Can we also move him to the secondary cast page though?

Really surprised that he's on this page, honestly. Technically he's billed as "Regular Cast" but by that logic, Will should have been on the "Supporting Cast" page until S2.

And that Ambiguously Bi entry needs to go.

There's no question he's singling out Lucas, but all what happens on-screen tells us is this is because Lucas happens to be the member of the Party he sees Max with the most. He's there when he picks her up from the school. He's there when he picks her up at the arcade. Based on the rest of his behavior, (IE being willing to run down all three of the Party members in episode 2) it's probable he'd have been no less controlling had it been Dustin, Will, or Mike he caught her with.

Not commenting on whether Billy is racist or not (he could be, but who knows...), but I say we keep him on the main characters page. My main argument is that he was advertised as a main character, unlike Karen (Mrs. Wheeler), Bob, or Dr. Owens.

He was on the main poster which modeled the S1 poster. At a relative forefront, as well (I know it's dumb to compare "sizes of characters on posters", but he's featured more prominently on the poster than Jonathan and Max, and about as much as Nancy). He also received his own poster and a Spotify playlist. He was also in a ton of interviews prior to the release. And even though Will was a "recurring cast member" (in S1), he was at the center of the main poster, so he could be considered a main character (in my eyes). I also think (though I'm not sure) he was in a ton of promotional material prior to the release of the first Season.

Excluding Brenner (since he was a S1 character), neither Karen nor Bob nor Dr. Owens received any advertisement for S2 other than "will appear in S2". I agree that he might not really be relevant to the narrative right now, but I'm pretty sure there's an interview out there that says something about a monster plot with Billy being pushed to S3 due to a lack of time (so this means that he WILL have a relatively important part to play in S3). I'll try to find the interview right now.

Just my two cents.

Also, sorry for so many edits. TV Tropes on mobile kinda sucks, lol.

I've noted this debate on YMMV under Broken Base, with all relevant points. We frankly have two major camps — he is or he isn't — and one minority that there's simply not enough to go on.

I say leave it there until we have a more unambiguous clarification from the Duffers or later seasons.

Having now finished, he's certainly racist. He says "you don't hang out with a certain kind of person" and literally everything he knows about Lucas is what he can tell at a glance, which is "he's black."

But I agree there's no harm in waiting, but there's also no doubt in my mind.

EDIT: Uh, apparently it is confirmed by Word of God so is there any reason not to keep this on here?

Runaway Max makes it clear he is not racist. The duffers said, "He's racist I think.". The actor that plays Lucas even said he isn't racist so the answer is no.

Okay, so your incredibly loose interpretation of the interview is reason to insist he's "totally not racist, you guys."

See, here's the thing. What the writers "think" is what the work... is.

Why is this a hill you want to die on, ignoring discussion over it and unilaterally changing the page?

That said, what does Runaway Max say? Because given how S3 whitewashed the shit out of him, it wouldn't surprise me if it retconned him into not being a racist.

Speaking as a writer myself: If I don't put something in the text, then it's not text. What the writers think is nothing more than what the writers think. If they wanted to it to be absolute then it should have been made explicit.

Looking at this almost three years on, the subtext in the show still seems pretty clear to me. Subtext can be interpreted however, but to say that it's not there at all is pretty disingenuous.

Seconding: what does Runaway Max say?

The thing is, I can't think of any other way to interpret "don't hang out with certain kinds of people" when literally all he knows about Lucas is that he's black. Hell, it even jives with S3 whitewashing him and going "he cared about Max all along!" by allowing the narrative to frame him as "protecting" her from Lucas in his mind.

In "Runaway Max" Max explicitly states, "Neil and I ASSUME Billy too, had a low opinion on anyone who wasn't white.". Mas has seen clear evidence that Neil has racist but just like us has seen NOTHING that explicitly makes it clear Billy is racist. Billy also in the book breaks Max's friend Mate's arm simply for being with Max. Billy didn't hate Lucas for being black he hates Max having any friends. If it was Dustin or Mike he would have had the same reaction. The only reason why he just targeted Lucas at the Byers house was because he only saw Max with Lucas until that point.

Except he WATCHED Max scream at Lucas, "You treat me like garbage." and then in the car he asked Max, "Is that kid causing you trouble?" and "Why are you upset?". He clearly thought Lucas was a terrible person like his dad which is why he said "certain type of people". He mean't people who act nice but are terrible watch the scene again he watches them argue.

Looks fine on my phone. Can you elaborate with what you mean?

Writing this from a tablet but I checked my phone again and the pictures look like they are where they should be now.

To describe what happened: I checked Joyce’s folder and she had what I now know to be Jim’s picture and Jim had Jonathan’s picture and every character besides those under “The Party” had the picture that was supposed to go to the character below them culminating in both Steve and Billy having Billy’s picture.

I don’t see any record of anyone editing the page today in the history so I’ll just assume it was my phone. It is getting pretty old...

It's already an Edit War. They've been moving Billy back and forth from main character to supporting character based on quotes by the Duffer Brothers.

It remains to be seen what importance the new characters will be given onward, including Will.