Ask The Tropers

I would seem kind of unfair to ban them for good if they haven't broken any rules since they were suspended.

TBH, it seems kind of mean to insist they're never gonna be good at English after three years. It takes some people dozens of years before they get a good handle on English, whether they're a native speaker or not. As long as they're actually trying to learn, even if they're only learning incrementally, why give up on them just because you don't want to bother to help them anymore? As long as they're not bringing their English issues to the wiki proper, it's not much of an issue if they still can't write it well.

...I never even mentioned the word "ban".

I understand Michael's question as this: when somebody repeatedly asks for help learning something, and we do our best to help and teach them, but they show no signs of improvement, what do we do?

Banning them is a very harsh solution. Ignoring their pleas for help is somewhat cold and just leaves them hanging. But continuing to help seems to be a waste of time.

The only thing I can think of is to suggest that they seek professional help - that is, either join an English course (on the net or in a local school) or contact one of the many professional tutors available on the net. If they aren't willing to do that, then why should you help them for free?

mewtron: Thing is, Avenger 09 has made pretty much zero progress. To write journeys spelled "journey's" after three years indicates that they just can't handle the basics. Especially since that's one of the things that got pointed out in their posts three years ago, at the start.

I'm not demanding that somebody be a perfect driver the first time they're behind the wheel. But I do wonder if there's a point to taking driving lessons when, after years of studying, you can't manage to remember if it's the green light or the red light which means you must stop.

It's like... I get the impression that Avenger only changes their post in the way we advice, but doesn't make an effort to remember what was wrong and why. Like a perpetually late person who says "I'll try harder to be in time," but makes no effort to look over their habits, identify why they keep being late, and change the relevant factors.

Again, the issue isn't just that Avenger09 makes mistakes. It's that they don't seem to be even trying to improve. The impression I get is that they treat posting English sentences in that thread like they're buying their weekly lottery ticket—just do it this week the same they always do, and if they're lucky it'll be right.

To be fair, they did once say something on a TLP draft like "Well, I'm suspended so I have no reason to learn proper editing rules". That was before they got, well, TLP banned for showing very similar issues, not fixing their drafts, and being unable to actually launch them.

Ohhh, I see. The "they're clearly never going to be good at English" part of the original query rubbed me the wrong way as it sounded very defeatist. If they're explicitly not even trying, then that's a different matter and I'm not sure how to address it.

I don't know what I'd do in this situation other than keep encouraging them to make the effort.

For example, I have been corresponding with someone so I could help them with effortposts, and when I felt that they had missed information, I've kept asking questions, and then had them resend the effortpost until I believed there was sufficient information. It took some effort, but I believe I am making headway with my correspondent.

However, if it has been 3 years for you, I don't know what to tell you.

Bumping to make sure the mods see this.

The more I think about it, if they are not willing to put in the effort, it doesn't seem fair for them to expect your help; that said, you may want to try taking the high road, and not letting them get to you.

We are discussing this internally.