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I dunno, see this is an OLD trope, and it has one of those descriptions that existed long before the wiki started developing tighter and more focused guidelines for what a trope should be. Back in those days, there were fewer tropes, so it was generally expected (and by some preferred) that tropes covered a lot of ground and covered just about every possible permutation.

I mention this because the description is basically all over the place. At one point, it states that the Dork Age can be a "Franchise Killer", thus implying that the series/work has ended or is on hiatus, but it also makes mention that it is "one self-contained story arc" that may even be fondly referenced once enough time has distanced it.

So, in short: I don't know. Can it fit into the description as written? Yes. Is it a valid example of a "new direction" that didn't work (for the fans)? Yes. But it's not also not like the writers or producers ever got a chance to move on or correct it, or even acknowledge that it was flawed. They got their money and their views and then it was over. That's that.

I feel like Dork Age is one of those tropes that's kind of rooted, at least in its origins as described on this site, in a few specific types of works (notably comic books).

Dunno what that means for it going forward.

I think that the word "Age" in the trope name implies that it describes a longer period. Perhaps a season of a series is long enough, but to me the word "age" implies a longer period of a really long-running franchise. A story arc (as mentioned in the trope description) can last for just a few episodes so it seems too short. Also, to me it implies that it's a period that has ended - "the series had its dork age but then it recovered".

But that's my personal interpretation and, as the Satyress mentions, the trope description is all over the place, so the trope as defined seems wider than my personal take on it.

The problem with the trope description is that it's so vague that it can mean basically any period of perceived lower quality. That IMHO makes the trope rather meaningless as it is currently defined. I do think that the conecpt has merit as a trope, just that the trope definition needs to be tightened for it to have real meaning.

^Agreed. We should get a tighter definition to stop it from being baseless complaining redundant with other tropes. Ideas or is that for TRS?

Probably TRS. Gonna toss a link to the wick check thread btw

I have long felt this article is too broad, overlapping with ones like Seasonal Rot. In some examples the age is caused by a misguided change to the status quo, in others it is from stagnation (so a lack of change). I would suggest redefining it as:

- An established franchise changes its formula to stay fresh.

- The change is badly received by the fandom and the franchise suffers commercially.

- The franchise responds by restoring most of the status quo ante.

But it will take a TRS thread to change a trope this much.

I agree that a TRS thread is required.

I don't quite agree on the last point above. The dork age needn't go back to status quo ante; it just needs to change in a direction that pleases the audience.

And I don't think the reason for the initial change (that started the dork age) needs to be to stay fresh; that seems overly restrictive and requires reading the creators' minds.

I think a crucial distinction between DA and Seasonal Rot is that the latter is just the series getting worse with time, while the first is it getting worse for a limited, but not too short, period of time.

Dork Age as I know it is when a long franchise has a rough spot that doesn't resonate with audiences. It's not for single works that have a rough patch in an otherwise good work or a franchise that only has a rare stinker now and then — it needs several consecutive works within the franchise to not do well with audiences without tanking the franchise and its creators.

The example in the OP is not an example since it's only a single work with a rough spot. It should be moved to Seasonal Rot where that one is audiences believe a work has gotten worse over time. The work doesn't have to be a killer (including killing the careers of its creators).

I'm confused about Seasonal Rot being about one particular season being bad vs a show getting worse over time. Square Peg, Round Trope says this:

• Seasonal Rot refers to one particular season of a show that is judged in hindsight to be markedly inferior to other seasons. Way too many people are using the term to mean "I don't like the current season." It also does not mean "got less good over time," which is Jump the Shark.

(The latter isn't even true. Jumping the Shark is for the moment when the show got worse, and it's In-Universe Examples Only.)

The trope definition of Seasonal Rot actually says this:

"Sometimes it's a temporary dip from which the series recovers (perhaps by bringing in new writers, changing the premise, or in severe cases simply ignoring the events of the rotted season). Other times, it proves to be irreversible and grows worse with each new season, at which point the series has Jumped The Shark."

So it seems I was wrong above when I thought it was only about growing worse with each season, but the Square Peg Round Trope entry is also wrong.

Does Dork Age need to be put on Tropes Needing TRS?

^ I have thought so for some time.

Honestly, put Seasonal Rot there too. It's so often misused for "series getting worse over time" but it may come to the point where that definition works to better distinguishing it from Dork Age.

I opened a thread in Trope Talk about Seasonal Rot not too long ago, primarily because I was similarly confused about whether it was referring solely to a single weak installment or a gradual decline in quality. (The latter is almost identical to Sequelitis.)

If we do end up taking these pages to TRS at some point in the future, though, how do we distinguish them from each other? I don't know if a combined thread would be a good idea, but they're ill-defined enough that it's difficult to take concrete action (particularly doing a wick check).

I think Seasonal Rot can get its own wick check under "Misuse." We can bring up the similarities from there, but as currently defined, Dork Age and Sequelitis are distinct.

How is this for a distinction?

• Sequelitis: A followup work is considered inferior.
• Seasonal Rot: A followup season is considered inferior.
• Dork Age: A (potentially finite) period of inferiority that doesn't fit the above.

^Sounds reasonable. I see that you don't require that Dork Age be about a whole franchise, and I agree with that: there's no reason to restrict it to works that occur in three different media.

Of course, there'll be the question how a followup season is different from a sequel, and I'd say that it's a different kind of followup. A sequel is a stand-alone work that follows up another standalone work. Seasons of a series aren't usually standalone in the sense that a movie is. They can be, of course, but there'll always be some grey zone of overlap.