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I can see both sides, leaning towards "not general"; as it's not talking about just a genre of movies or anything, but a creator's common roles, much like you'd see on an actual creator page. If that's considered "general", those pages need serious cleanup.
However, it might be a better fit for "Real Life" as it's talking about an actress's aesthetic, not the films themselves; ya know? But it could really work in either folder, I just feel like "Film" is the slightly less accurate spot.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
This kind of example is a borderline case, and I can see both sides of the argument.
But I think the best solution is to make it specific by listing some of the films where she made the look famous. You already mention A Fool There Was, but if you added the film where she played Cleopatra I think the example will definitely be a specific one (or, rather, two specific examples). That should satisfy everybody, i think.
Also, I think the example is Film, not Real Life, unless she wore such makeup outside of her roles as well. To me, a Real Life example about an actor is about what they do off-stage; if it's part of their stage persona, it's Film or Theater or whatever.
^ Fair enough; it being called her "aesthetic" made me think it might have been both on-and-off-stage.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
^That's quite possible. Maybe Satyress knows?
^^^ & ^^ The only issue with doing such a list is that a large number of Theda Bara's films (including Cleopatra) were destroyed during a 1937 Hollywood fire that destroyed 75% of all films created before 1932. So no one knows very much about the majority of her films; all we know is that she became the most famous actress and idol in Hollywood after being typecast in those sort of roles.
There's not many images
that we can find of her outside of promotional work or professional photography, so whether she used the look off-camera isn't known, either. In her younger photos she kept the look
◊ off-camera and in her older years, she seems to have ditched it
◊.
However, it is known that she became so fatigued and disillusioned with being typecast with this aesthetic that she quit film acting for 5 years.
Edited by NubianSatyress
The entry is pretty vaguely-worded as written. What is "this sort of aesthetic"?
I think a good way to resolve this would be to just focus on country of origin the appearance of her characters in those films we do know of; that way the entry doesn't focus so much on her career (especially since a lot of it has been lost). So I'd trim back the statement saying that she made her career on these types of roles. Make sure to state the characters' country of origin, since Bara herself had Polish and Swiss roots.
- [something like "Theda Bara portrayed makeup-heavy Middle Eastern characters during the Silent Film era"]
- A Fool There was:
- Cleopatra:
^ Again, it seems silly to me not to mention the fact that she is the a major reason why this aesthetic overlaps so much with The Vamp, and other examples of Excessive Evil Eyeshadow. Also, what would you suggest writing for each role that wouldn't simply be "This character wears a lot of makeup and eyeshadow and is from X country?" ad nauseam?
You can add that information and it will certainly enrich the example, but it seems to me that "This character wears a lot of makeup and eyeshadow and is from X country" is the minimal amount of context for the trope. I didn't know who Theda Bara was or what she looked like before finding this TLP.
This is weird. Sylvie first cited How to Write an Example, then changed that to No Lewdness, No Prudishness. Like, is this person just complaining and trying to apply any policy to the entry. First of all, your Theda Bara example is not general. It's a specific actor with a specific look, and there's a work included to make the example more concrete (A Fool There Was). Second of all, this example is not merely on the actor but also her characters. The phrase "made her career" is very telling. The example is not about the actor specifically. There really does not seem to be a reason for shutting this example down, and imo it is fine as is.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Anyone PM Iuka to tell them of this conversation?
I think this example should stay in the film folder, not the real life section. The example is not about a real life person's behavior, it's about a specific person's performances in fiction films.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
I saw them on ATT literally minutes before I created this one, but I'll send them a PM now.
Like I said, it was the "aesthetic" part that threw me off, which is why I said it could work for both folders- it just read less like a film example to me. But if I'm outvoted, cool cool.
Edited by WarJay77 Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Based on the discussion so far, I can see a possible rewrite for the trope being:
- Silent film actress Theda Bara made her career wearing the aesthetic of a dangerous/exotic beauty in Excessive Evil Eyeshadow, especially in her 1917 portrayal of Cleopatra. Her look was so iconic that she became the Trope Namer of The Vamp for her 1915 film A Fool There Was, where she portrayed a literal vampire that lured men to be her unsuspecting victims. The production studio even billed her as being part Egyptian for years to sell the appeal.
I'm sorry I misused the policy of No Lewdness, No Prudishness. I should have cited some other policy.
^Seconded.
Definitely a film example, Nubian Satyress's writeup looks good, and kudos for giving Theda Bara the attention she deserves.
For the films we have lost, we still have plot descriptions from contemporary sources, stills and promotional photos, and, in the case of Cleopatra, a clip.
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I created a TLP called Middle East Makeup
and added an example talking about actress Theda Bara which states thus:
Tropers.lukaSylvie and I then had the following disagreement in the comments:
If I'm wrong here, then I suppose I can remove reference to the actress, but as far as I know, there's nothing wrong per se about mentioning that a creator was famous for, typecast as, or made common use of a trope in their works. Especially when said creator is a Trope Codifier or otherwise had an influential impact.
I understand why rules against "general" examples or talking about actors/actresses in terms of Lewdness/Prudishness is necessary, but in this case, it seems crazy not to talk about an actress who helped define how we look at a trope in Western media.
Edited by NubianSatyress