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10th Mar, 2019 05:07:50 PM

As I recall, it was originally a trope specific to fanfiction (from back in the days where "fandom" wasn't really as visible to people outside their specific part of it, and fanfic was the only tangible manifestation of fanon).

Perhaps it needs a cleanup?

10th Mar, 2019 05:24:07 PM

I seen Ron Eaters use for characters who get demonized by fans regardless of fanfics.

10th Mar, 2019 06:32:04 PM

"Fanfics are required as proof" feels like an artifact phrasing. Under the current interpretation of fandom-based tropes, "this fanfic turns Ron into a Death Eater" would not be proof of the Harry Potter fandom being an example — it would be the example.

Edited by wingedcatgirl
10th Mar, 2019 06:35:42 PM

Where on the page does it say a fanfic needs to be cited?

I never thought of it as fanfic-specific but rather a general tendency in fan circles, much like Draco in Leather Pants.

10th Mar, 2019 06:52:51 PM

^ It's commented out. The top of the page says:

SOURCED EXAMPLES ONLY. Don't just say "This happens to Character X a lot." If you can't name a specific fanwork, it's not an example, and it will be removed.

10th Mar, 2019 07:09:57 PM

^^ There's a lot of older tropes that described fandom tendencies, rather than being storytelling elements. Conversion from "the fandom has a tendency to do X" to "this fan work does X" was usually the simplest solution.

10th Mar, 2019 07:21:37 PM

If it's strictly a fanfiction storytelling trope, should it be removed from Audience Reactions, then?

While I understand the rationale for requiring citations, I can't say I like the restriction because it supposes fanfiction is the only place fanon ideas are shaped.

11th Mar, 2019 03:06:09 AM

Ron the death eater does happen in original source. Like Marvel's Hank Pym with the whole hitting his wife deal. Despite it only happening once and it under mental stress.

Edited by WhirlRX
11th Mar, 2019 03:34:51 AM

My take on the warning Pichu-kun is quoting ('Don't just say "This happens to Character X a lot." If you can't name a specific fanwork, it's not an example, and it will be removed') is that this seems to be a case of Examples Are Not General.

An example on the lines of "This happens to character X a lot" is not an example because it's too general.

So it's not a matter of requiring "proof", it's a matter of examples needing to be specific. An example that doesn't refer to a work where it happens is not an example (mainly because the idea is that the reader should be able to look it up and see for themselves).

Edited by GnomeTitan
11th Mar, 2019 11:46:13 AM

I remember back in 2011 or so, pages like Ron the Death Eater, Draco in Leather Pants and even various Mary Sue articles talked of the general treatment of characters by the fandom (or, rather, fanfic writers and the occasional Single-Issue Wonk fan on a campaign). I would argue this was more meaningful: it's about the character in the fandom's eyes, not single fanfics. But besides violation Examples Are Not General, it made it difficult to tell the truth of what was being put on the pages, since you needed to be familiar with a lot of (mostly poor-quality) fics to know. So we started to require specific fics, which make the pages seem myopic, and is only partly enforced. I don't know what to do about it, but it may need rethinking how we write examples.

11th Mar, 2019 02:17:15 PM

That makes sense, but I'm still not clear on why Draco in leather pants doesn't require examples when RDE does? Both are somewhat subjective (i.e. based on the perception of how far along the moral scale a character is in either direction), and the DILP page provides no examples for a reader to look it up and see for themselves. Imo, an example could be specific without naming a fic or community as proof.

11th Mar, 2019 05:03:26 PM

What would you consider to be the line between adaptional villainy/heroism and death eater/leather pants

11th Mar, 2019 09:24:22 PM

All the examples of Ron the Death Eater should be sourced.

RE: Invincibleasshole

I'd consider the difference to be:

RE: Whirl RX

I wouldn't say Hank Phym hitting his wife was an example of that, not only was it the result of an artist miscommunication to my knowledge, but its an official work.

Ron the Death Eater would be making a marvel fanfiction where it turns out Phym was always a wife beater, had beaten a wide variety of women and showed no remorse for any of it.

Edited by Monsund
12th Mar, 2019 12:04:24 PM

Adaptional anything is understood to be a different canon, and has no obligation to stay true to the original. If a fanfic states that it is an AU and reinterprets the cast, it should be considered Adaptional-something rather than DILP or RDE.

Fighteer MOD
13th Mar, 2019 06:13:01 AM

We've been over this before, but to clarify:

Adaptation tropes do not occur in the original work; they occur in the adaptation. This should be Captain Obvious, but apparently it isn't for some people. If work A is an adaptation (reboot, reimagining, spinoff, film of the book, etc.) of work B, changes that are made in work A would be listed as adaptation tropes in the article for work A, not for work B.

An adaptation is a form of derivative work. Fan fiction is a form of derivative work. Fan fiction is not an adaptation, because adaptations are either by the original creator or licensed by the original creator. Fan fiction, by definition, is an unlicensed derivative. However, our Media Adaptation Tropes are agnostic as to whether they refer to licensed adaptations or fan works, despite the name.

Ron the Death Eater and Draco in Leather Pants are fandom reaction tropes, but in order to avoid violating our rules about general examples, they should cite specific works in which they occur. This means that they should be, but are not always, treated the same as adaptation tropes: listed only on articles for the fan fics in which they are found.

We are still having discussion about this issue on the forums, here.

13th Mar, 2019 12:32:47 PM

Looking at the page, this subpage has a ton of un-cited examples, can we cut?

Fighteer MOD
13th Mar, 2019 12:43:35 PM

I hesitate to advise a full cut, because that is effectively a policy statement and I don't want to commence a cavalcade of cleanup without clear consensus.

What's weird about that is that there are fan works listed, which are legit examples. I'd transport them to Alternative Character Interpretation, which is the supertrope... although it also shouldn't have uncited examples.

14th Mar, 2019 11:24:30 PM

I think we'd need a more extensive discussion before a full cut. Such as a TRS thread.