Repair: Lucky Seven

1. Why is it a Just for Fun page? "The Number Seven used as a numerological motif" is as tropable as it gets!

2. Why doesn't it have a decent description? The Real Life and the Mythology & Religion have some examples that could be used to explain its origin, or something.

3. Why is it called Lucky Seven, when many of the examples don't focus on it being lucky? It would definitely make a lot more sense as Rule of Seven, or something similar.

edited 15th Nov '10 10:27:32 AM by EternalSeptember

Why is this a Just for Fun page is a good question. This should be a trope along the lines of Four Is Death and 13 Is Unlucky. Can anyone explain why its the only number trope marked like this.

Yeah the Just for Fun needs to go, its perfectly valid along with all the rest of the Number Tropes. (this is the only Just for Fun I think in that index.)

Thing is, seven is more than just lucky. It's tied up with Christian imagery and such-like. Even Christian music makes heavy use of it. And then I think some other religions used it too. And then it came up in secular culture for some other reasons. It probably needs a theologian/mathematician/historian/anthropologist/psychologist/linguist to explain the background properly, as far as I understand it. o_O

• 1 to "don't understand why Just for Fun". Possibly because JFF means that it can be a pet project and remain largely unmolested by dirty strange hands. ''Possibly''.

According to Christian theology, the first occurance of the number was (obviously) when God created the world in seven days. Even some old Earth creationists and theistic evolutionists, who don't take those chapters literally, believe that the Rule of Seven had some significant part in organizing it.

According to secular anthropology, it's first natural source were the seven heavenly bodies, the Sun, the Moon, and the planets up to Saturn. After all the first civilizations saw that, they named them after gods, organized the weeks around them, and this is how it started to become significant.

edited 15th Nov '10 11:05:08 AM by EternalSeptember

Awesome. Totally forgot the world being created thing, somehow.

Was thinking more along the lines of Revelations. Annoyed Grunt.

Also, nice one.

edited 15th Nov '10 11:19:17 AM by mmysqueeant

Yep, 7 is the number symbolizing the divine. The entire reason that 666 is the Number of the Beast is because 6, just one shy of 7, symbolizes imperfection.

edited 15th Nov '10 7:44:31 PM by MetaFour

Hilarious seeing that 6 is a perfect number. I do think that 7 being lucky and/or divine should be a trope though and not just a listing of things there are seven of.

While the description definitely needs expanding, I'm fine with the name Lucky Seven, as it's one of the most common associations with the number.

But where would you draw the line? Clearly, there are many examples that were probably inspired by the number's position in mythology, without directly drawing attention to it.

Actually, you would be hard-pressed to find seven straight examples with this criteria. Even most examples in The Bible are just gratuitously dropping the number in the middle of the description, and it was later assumed that it must be so frequent because it has divine significance. The examples where it is specifically pointed out that the number is a big deal, would be Lampshade Hanging.

One of the more common, but not the only one. I would just feel awkward typing "Lucky Seven" as the name of the trope that is invoked in A Song Of Ice And Fire with the seven gods, the Seven Kingdoms, the septons(priests), the septs (temples), the seven Kingsguards, and the (hopefully) seven books.

Actually, this might be the reason why Rule of Three has 1107 wicks, and 2,705 inbounds, while this page about the same concept but with a different number has only 45 and 18. That would be pretty serious proof that the page is broken.

I would draw the line where we draw other tropes we observe. If it isn't about 7 being lucky it shouldn't be on here. I think 7 being divine is a different trope than it being lucky. There is some overlap, but it's not quite the same.

How about Significant Seven?

Too vague and too likely to have things that are just coincidentally seven in there.

Did you actually read the description?

"Just for Fun and Older Than Dirt, it's the number seven as a Numerological Motif...

Just what is it with the number seven?!

When applied to colors, this becomes Roy G Biv."

At no point does it mention luck.

I think we should split "7 is the number of divinity" from "7 is good luck".

I really thing this should be handled the same way we deal with Rule of Three. I think the idea that seven is significant works better as a trope than the two elements work separately.

Well, if we're going to point out all the normal things that fall under 7, then we should add in the colours of the rainbow, the Seven Heavenly Virtues, and the Seven Deadly Sins.

edited 17th Nov '10 11:13:50 AM by shimaspawn

I really like the name "Significant Seven".

There's also the trope about '108' somewheres or uvvers. Useful for comparison.

edited 17th Nov '10 11:16:41 AM by mmysqueeant

How about Significant Seven as a supertrope to Lucky Seven, Sacred Seven, and The Seven Deady Sins? That could work.

All of these were already listed in the examples.

The problem is, as I said it in # 10, that while the trope usually implies luck, divinity, or magical power, it's almost never said out directly. In the current example list, there would be only two straight examples of "seven is lucky", and zero examples of "seven is divine", if you would judge it by whether this belief is stated.

Also, it is considered lucky because it is divine, and it became "divine" only because it was already considered significant before the Bible was written, but nowadays it is mostly considered significant because it was mythically lucky and divine through history.

These three are so mixed, that there is no real difference in how the trope is used:

• If there is a superhero group of seven, that would be Significant Seven.

• If there is a superhero group of seven, and at one point, someone lampshades that it is very lucky, that would be Lucky Seven.

• If there is a superhero group of seven, and someone points out that the number has religious meaning, that would be Sacred Seven.

The trope is used the same way in all three cases, the only difference is that the first one uses the number because it's significant, but it is significant because of the latter two causes, it's just a matter of bringing up the right piece of trivia to show it asa different trope.

edited 17th Nov '10 12:19:31 PM by EternalSeptember

We can do a supertrope and only trope the subtropes that pass the rule of three? So if we can't find enough examples of seven being divine, we can mention that it has that meaning on the supertrope page and leave the couple of examples there.

If it's just a group of 7 superheroes it's not a trope any more than a group of 11 superheroes would be. Or 24. Or 78. It's not significant on it's own without at least some meaning hinted at by someone.

edited 17th Nov '10 1:17:37 PM by shimaspawn

Yeah, right. And a video game monster having 666 health points isn't a trope any more than 384 points, until someone specifically points out that it's a reference to the Number of the Beast, and an unusually deadly mission that happens to be #13, isn't a trope any more than #15 or #8 until it is stated that it's an unlucky number.

edited 17th Nov '10 2:13:43 PM by EternalSeptember

Exactly. None of those things are tropes. Those are coincidences.

You're wrong.