Kingdom Hearts

@unnoun

Hmm. That's true. Derp. (Please forgive me, I had insomnia last night, and I'm currently running on what remaining caffeine I still have in my system.)

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 12th 2018 at 11:32:39 PM

1. Vanitas is Vanitas though, loyal but impetuous as I said. He impulsively tries to kill what he feels does not suit his purpose both Aqua and Ventus both but ultimately he loyally adhered to Xehanort's plans.

He may or may not betray Xehanort. We don't know whats going to happen but we shouldn't put all the eggs in the he's obviously betrayed Xehanort basket. Its as plausible that The Coats Are Off are the reason why he isn't wearing the cloak in the Land of Departure scenes.

2. You have debunked nothing. Xehanort has had the same plan from his days as Terra-Xehanort allegedly up to his life as Ansem and Xemnas. Terra-Xehanort split himself into Ansem and Xemnas in order to search for the Princesses via Ansem and for vessels via Xemnas. You keep clinging to the idea that the Terra part has motivation in Xehanort's want to try and find Ventus but Terra says outright that "Xehanort is using me to try and find Ven!"

Edited by lycropath on Nov 12th 2018 at 7:45:28 AM

Ansem says "When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?"

Kairi and Ven's hearts leave their bodies, and they lose consciousness while not being dead. They still breathe.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 12th 2018 at 10:41:10 AM

1. Vanitas only acted loyal when he's around Xehanort (but only when he has yet to get his hands on the X-blade, perhaps). We know from the flashback with poor Ven (and Vanitas' backstory of admittedly questionable canonicity) that Xehanort was an abusive and powerful mentor who trained his apprentices by tormenting them and putting them in sink-or-swim situations. As bloodthirsty and crazy Vanitas can be, even he's got enough of a sense of self-preservation and/or pragmatism to keep his rebelliousness under control when he's with him.

Mickey saved Ven, and they beat Vanitas together, which gave him a reason to calm down and give Ven another chance. Because Vanitas does ultimately want to reunite with Ven. That is a desire independent of Xehanort's manipulations. What Xehanort did was give him the extra motive of forging the X-blade and starting another Keyblade War, which coincides and lines up with his personality (as the logical result of being 100% darkness and trained by a cruel master like Xehanort for four long years) and the goal of becoming one with Ven again.

Xehanort had ordered Vanitas to get rid of Aqua, but he decided against it when he had the chance to do so in Neverland (he was nowhere to seen when Peter Pan wakes her up, meaning he got up before she did). It's likely because he got the idea of keeping her around so he could use her as incentive to provoke Ven into fighting him (which is exactly what happened), but it's still an instance of defiance against Xehanort.

2. Multiple conversations that Xemnas had with Aqua's armour that Aqua herself has no recollection of! And Terranort being the one who talked with Aqua in 0.2! Meaning Xemnas wasn't the one who tried to trick her into telling him where Ven was with the intention of furthering Xehanort's goals! It is true that Xemnas was tasked with finding vessels for the implantation of the fragments of Xehanort's heart, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's why he's looking for Ven! Xemnas ultimately had Terra's body and only around 1/13th of Xehanort's heart and possibly even the faint beginnings of a new heart that's similar to Terra's, developed through his interactions with Aqua's armour in the Chamber of Repose (as opposed to Terranort, who had Xehanort's entire heart in him, until the day he split himself into two). Is it so hard to believe that Terra's portion of Xemnas' being could have had influence over his decisions concerning his best friends?

I already said I brainfarted from lack of sleep...

Speaking of which, I should really go to bed. I'll come back tomorrow (assuming I can resist the temptation of sticking around to continue this).

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 13th 2018 at 12:16:23 AM

1. In context, Vanitas's lack of loyalty are portrayed like "He'll be mad about this but I really don't like your face so I'll deal with the scolding later." like a spiteful teenager thinking its easier to ask for forgiveness then it is permission.

His motivations for everything remain unexplored except for in novels of very dubious likely-hood to be taken in continuity with the games.

2. As it seems to be, Xemans can speak with the armor as much as he'd like but he was only able to reach Aqua that one time, presumably because of Namine connected Terra and Aqua's heart and because of this Xemnas's heart (IE Terra Xehanort) can speak through Terra. Xemnas never stopped searching for the chamber of repose and thus continued futilely to try and reach Aqua through the armor and sent Axel to Castle Oblivion to find it.

You're relying way to much on here-say and theories that Terra-Xehanort was maybe kind of a new person rather then the simplest and most straightforward interpretation.

This infers Terra knows he is no longer himself at this point he is likely to be Xemnas and Ansem and the only reason he appears this way is because Aqua herself.

Terra does not want to know where Ventus is, he wants Aqua to keep herself tight lipped lest he is used by Xehanort to locate Ventus.

The thing that Xemnas is searching for in Final Mix 2 and 358/Days, something Terra would not know about because he never became a keyblade master and was never given the knowledge only meant for Masters.

So to reiterate, the logical conclusion is that Xemnas tried to use Terra to find Ventus. Through Namine's power Aqua and Terra make contact and because Aqua wanted to see Terra he does not appear as he is now to her. Xemnas confirms his suspicions that Aqua hid Ventus in the "Chamber of Waking" in Castle Oblivion. As it is Xemnas's duty to find vessels to put his heart in, it is likely that the empty Ven bod is desired for this exact purpose.

Edited by lycropath on Nov 12th 2018 at 8:38:33 AM

...You know what? Just one more response. Then bedtime.

1. ...You really think all Xehanort's going to do is scold him? ...Are you serious?

But my interpretation does make sense. And what we've seen of him in the KH3 trailers do lend a little credence to my interpretation. (Subtly letting out a relieved half-sigh half-laugh after Ven accidentally confirms his presence within Sora by calling out his name when Sora shouldn't know who he is, hand shaking a little as he reaches out to where Ven's heart is in Sora's chest, calling him 'remnant of my heart' somewhat possessively in the original Japanese voiceover, etc.)

2. In the Final Mix extra cutscenes, Xigbar said to Zexion, and I quote, 'Couldn't hear what they were saying.' Meaning that while he couldn't make out what was being said, he could hear more than one voice coming from the Chamber of Repose. He was also unsurprised and unperturbed by the presence of the additional voice, meaning it's likely not a one-time occurance. (He's searching for the Chamber of Waking...)

And even if it was just that once? What are the odds of Xigbar just happening to stumble upon the Chamber of Repose that one time Xemnas could finally reach Aqua?

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again. It's far more likely that Terranort (who has Xehanort's entire heart within him) was the one who contacted her before splitting himself into 'Ansem' and Xemnas.

Also, if your hypothesis is true, then that means Aqua would not have been in danger of being found by Xehanort and, I quote from Namine, 'confused by the darkness' if she hadn't connected Aqua with Terra and exposed her whereabouts to both him and Xehanort. Aqua would not have needed to be 'guided' if Xehanort didn't know where she was to begin with.

And isn't the simplest interpretation also a theory in itself? Part of my argument (not just mine, but yours too) may be theoretical, but my theories are based on facts and do not contradict anything. Also, the topic of what we're discussing/arguing about (your pick) is theoretical by nature. Until KH3 finally fucking comes out, this is just all... theoretical. (Also, I see that you're ignoring some of my points throughout the discussion while I'm actively trying to comment on all of yours.)

To sum it up, what I believe is going on, is that:

1. Terranort's the one who talked with Aqua in 0.2.

2. Namine's conversation with Lingering Will happened afterwards, and had no actual bearing on what happened in 0.2. Instead, it's going to motivate Lingering Will to finally get off his ass and do something in KH3.

3. Xemnas' decisions concerning Ven and Aqua were driven by Terra's portion of his being. Otherwise, he's following Xehanort's directive of finding and cultivating potential Seeker candidates.

4. After Xehanort's failures in BbS and his overall dissatisfaction with Ven, Xehanort has no desire of getting Ven's body. Vanitas is the one that wants to find him.

5. Even if Xehanort wants Ven's body, the connection between Ven's body and heart would keep him from being able to hijack it. The purity of Ven's heart would also likely have allowed Ven's body to build up an immunity to darkness (except for his own, Vanitas), like the Seven Princesses of Heart.

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 13th 2018 at 10:54:17 PM

Xehanort has a foot in the grave already due to his age, that's why he is trying to rush out the X-Blade plan with Vanitas and Ventus. Vanitas is just to valuable for Xehanort to just replace this late in his life. That and Vanitas considered the entire affair to be casual enough that he treats the consequences of his actions in a devil may care manner.

Also in fiction land, its very likely the only time Xemnas reached through to Aqua that Xigbar was able to eavesdrop. There are no coincidences in fate after all.

But as a rebuttal...

1. You're also forgetting Aqua's darkness adventure takes place during the finale of Kingdom Hearts which means the conversation with Terra and Xehanort would have to happen after he became Ansem and Xemnas.

Even with time shenanigans the story takes place in the fallen Dwarf Woodland, Enchanted Dominion and Castle of Dreams at the earliest it could take places is after the fall of Radiant Garden which was after Ansem and Xemnas came to be.

Mickey also comes to Aqua's aid immediately after her conversation with Terra and Xehanort and he has only been in the Realm of Darkness for a short while beginning his journey at the start of Kingdom Hearts.

2. That would render the Namine and Terra concert scene superfluous when it was stated that it would have a connection to 0.2

3. As it must be either Ansem or Xemnas speaking as per point 1, Xemnas does not have Terra leanings because Terra doesn't want to find Ven. Xemnas is on Seekers of Darkness and Ansem is out for Princesses of Heart.

4. Xehanort had believed Ven had the potential to be part of the X-Blade in Birth By Sleep, it stands to reason he still thinks that.

5. There is also no concrete rules on how a heart of pure light works. We know they cannot be turned into a Heartless, but darkness still does a tangible effect to one. Kairi's heart was banished from her body and sought refuge in Sora because the Darkness. This is unlike Riku who's powers are of a different context where his mastery prevents his heart from becoming vulnerable to sleep or being stolen.

Edited by lycropath on Nov 12th 2018 at 9:26:08 AM

I will say that the absolute earliest Namine could have possibly existed is back when Destiny Islands got destroyed (though that depends on one's interpretation, she could have come into existence after the end of Sora's first visit to Castle Bastion), and Aqua's 0.2 journey ends with all the worlds getting restored.

Thus if Namine's chat with the Lingering Will is in relation to that conversation, then it would mean that it would be impossible for anyone other than "Ansem" or Xemnas to have been the one talking to Aqua (unless time travel is involved. You never know with time travel...)

You can torture someone within an inch of their lives without killing them. Xehanort can still dish out a lot of disciplinary pain if he's aware of Vanitas' insubordination. And Vanitas didn't 'treat the consequences of his actions with a devil may care manner' because he 'considered the entire affair to be casual'. He did so because he's rebellious, and had his own agenda outside of what his and Xehanort's goals had in common.

Hey, I'm just trying to be logical here. And again, Xigbar acted as though the additional voice in the Chamber of Repose was no surprise. If it's the first and only time, then it would mean such an occurance was unprecedented. And if Xigbar really was there for that 'first and only time', then he would have been at least a little taken aback. But nope, it was just another Tuesday for him.

1. Hmm. That is actually quite true. I forgot about that. I will concede to you on that point. (Not the Mickey one though. She could have been out cold and kept unconscious for a really long time. ...But that's beside the point.) Then I shall propose another possibility: the one who appeared in 0.2 was Terranort's Heartless, 'Ansem', the one who kept both Xehanort's and Terra's heart with him (thus allowing Terra to be aware of what Xehanort's scheming at the moment and try to stop him from tricking Aqua). You mentioned that 'Terranort's' appearance in 0.2 may have been influenced by Aqua's perception, so I believe she could have seen 'Ansem' as Terranort. It still didn't necessarily have to be Xemnas. ('Terranort' being 'Ansem' could also have a continuation of sorts in KH3, as shown when Aqua encounters and faces off against him in one of the trailers.)

2. If you remember one of my replies to Unnoun, I mentioned that Nomura could have simply meant that Namine's conversation with Lingering Will was a loose tie-in to 0.2 because it's about Terra trying to reach out to and 'guide' Aqua again after failing the first time in 0.2. The conversation wouldn't be superfluous if it was Namine who spurred Lingering Will to stop kneeling on the ground for years on end and finally take action in KH3 (which I personally think would be more significant than if the conversation had taken place before 0.2).

3. I talked about Aqua and the voice speaking to Xemnas through her armour being different entities while also both being 'Aqua'. It could be the same with Terra and the essence of Terra within Xemnas. The former, as a heart who's very much aware of his identity and his 'surroundings', knew about Xehanort's plans and was trying to foil them because of his consciousness and active hostility against him. The parts of Xemnas that came from Terra lacked those two 'components', so the Terra within Xemnas would not have been capable of knowing and understanding what Terra's heart knew. The effect Terra had over Xemnas could have manifested simply as an aspect of Xemnas' subconscious (and not another personality vying for control of the body), but it could have been enough to divert Xehanort's influence away from his decisions and actions regarding Aqua and Ven.

4. Xehanort himself confessed in 3D that he had been too hasty in BbS. He scrapped the plan involving Vanitas and Ven, because the X-blade they forged was nowhere close to the X-blade that can be forged from a much grander conflict with the right number of belligerents on both sides of light and darkness. (I've already brought up why Xehanort would not want Ven as a candidate before, so I won't repeat myself.) And while Xehanort can just use the Seven Princesses, he has a flair for the dramatics, and would prefer clashing with the Guardians. Ven could still be of use to him without meeting his criteria for the Seekers by taking part in the war on the side of light.

5. While it is true that Kairi's heart was separated from her body because of the darkness in KH1, neither the heart nor the body came to harm. Kairi's heart was safe within Sora, and Kairi's body remained intact and untainted, despite being exposed to and engulfed by the darkness while being transported and dumped to another World. The same could apply to Ven. (I'm not talking about Riku, so he's irrelevant to my argument.)

Lycropath has given me ample proof to reconsider my stance on that point, but thank you nonetheless.

@Unnoun

Turns out, I only half brainfarted (or a double brainfart, since this didn't occur to me until I woke up). The Nobodies! They come into (non-)existence without hearts at first, and yet they are conscious! So what does that say about the hypothesis that 'the heart is the site of consciousness'?

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 14th 2018 at 1:54:00 AM

She explicitly came into existence after Sora's first visit to Hollow Bastion.

We know she didn't come from Kairi's body because Kairi's body is accounted for the whole first game. So, she came from Sora's. At the same time Roxas did. Like twins.

Well.

I mean, there's some Toy Story lore in KH 3's Toybox about how the Toys aren't conscious at first, and need help from their fellow toys and their owners, and a statement from Ansem in DDD that seems to have a clue?

It seems, from that, and Xemnas's talk about how hearts can be nurtured, (and, you say it's wrong, but Ansem the wise says that Sora knows more about hearts than he does so I've come to believe that everything Sora says about hearts is 100% literally true, so go off I guess,) Sora says they grow with each new experience, I think that.

As far as I can tell, a heart is what happens when you get enough memories together. Therefore, I guess the site of consciousness is memory?

With that, it seems like part of having a heart is that someone else sees the heart in you? Or something?

It's all extremely. Collectivist.

Or, y'know, quantum again. Observer effect.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 13th 2018 at 12:45:59 PM

But still. A Nobody must have a consciousness in order to interact with their surroundings and form bonds with people. That's how you gain new experiences in order to grow a heart. So Nobodies must have a consciousness first before a new heart can be formed within them. And Nobodies retain their memories, so I can ask you the same question about where the site of memory resides.

You mentioned the idea of a heart being brought into existence within an object/phenomenon through someone else's perception of that object/phenomenon having one. That's one way to bypass that, but it contradicts 3D's message/reveal of how literally heartless entites must make an effort themselves to form meaningful bonds and accumulate new experiences in order to be 'rewarded' with the growth and development of a new heart.

(Oh, what tangled (pun not intended) webs we weave.)

I mean, explicitly, they don't, according to Ansem? Like hollow puppets or petals in the breeze.

That might not be a meaningful question. Like asking where the body resides.

...Also, "dreams hold our memories, sleep holds our dreams, and darkness, it holds our sleep," so.

¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

I mean, the stuff I mentioned is in 3D.

Except the stuff in KH 3's Toybox about how the toys in the toy store haven't "woke up" yet.

I mean, thats not necessarily what actually is said in 3D.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 13th 2018 at 1:06:06 PM

They don't what? Need to be aware of themselves and their surroundings to experience things? That what you mean?

I mean, you believed that people's consciousness resides in the heart, so it is a meaningful question.

(Enough of the cryptic bullshit, Ansem! You're supposed to be a scientist!)

Okay, maybe 'message' isn't the right word. More like, implications of the reveal that Nobodies can regrow or develop new hearts?

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 13th 2018 at 5:37:36 PM

While it could be Ansem and not Xemnas speaking, its just not consistent with the narrative as it has been presented. Xemnas has been searching for Ventus and the Chamber since Final Mix II, he makes several references to it in 358/2 Days. That it would suddenly be Ansem looking for him would be out of the blue.

This is making far to many grand assumptions when there is a direct cause and effect going on in 0.2 and the concert scene. Aqua is haunted by phantoms of Terra and Ventus in the Realm of Darkness, they just walk past her unspeaking and its driving her to despair. Namine in her all knowing wisdom says to Terra she will send him to speak to Aqua to guide her. The next time Aqua meets a phantom its different and he speaks.

But Xemnas explicitly isn't driven by Terra like impulses, he remembers and Xehanort's plan its why he was created after all. He isn't searching for Ventus because the Terra part of him but because Xehanort wants him. Its a lot of reaching to assume he is acting on the subconscious part when the actual conscious parts we know are searching for Ventus and remember who he is and what condition he is in. The conversation with the armor could be another unresolved thing unrelated to 0.2 but signs point to that being the resolution of that particular mystery.

You shouldn't repeat yourself because there is nothing you have said is supported by the games. The game suggests that an empty shell such as Sora or Ventus is is the perfect vessel for Xehanort to take.

Xehanort obviously has a vested interest in what happens with Ventus, the fact that Vanitas even knows where Ventus is implies that Xehanort sends him there and we know he believes that the Guardians of Light will gather without his intervention to match him.

Kairi's heart came to no harm because it took shelter in Sora. Kairi's body remained safe because Maleficent and Riku protected it from harm.

1. Who said they couldn't help each other out with their respective missions? If Ansem could locate and reach Aqua in the Realm of Darkness due to his higher affinity to the darkness as a Heartless, and Xemnas couldn't communicate with the actual Aqua herself through her armour, then I don't see why Ansem couldn't just take that matter into his own hands and find her in Xemnas' stead (perhaps even behind his back). It pays well to keep yourself up-to-date with the status of your enemies, regardless of whether or not you're planning on using them as vessels.

2. Terra ultimately failed to stop Aqua from both being tricked by Xehanort and succumbing to the darkness in KH3. I don't see how that could be the intended result of Namine's conversation with Lingering Will. And again, do you have any concrete proof that the conversation happened before that part in 0.2? And during the time between Aqua's futile chase after the illusions of her friends and the moment when 'Terranort' showed up to trick her, no less?

3. What do you mean by 'explicitly isn't driven by Terra-like impulses'? Xemnas considered Aqua and Ven friends. He even called Aqua's armour a 'friend' instead of just addressing her by her name (which would have been sufficient if it's the Xehanort part of Xemnas deceiving the armour that it's talking with Terra). If he's driven by Xehanort, then why would he have called and viewed them as friends? My argument is at least as valid as your claim that Xemnas was completely influenced by Xehanort's share of his being.

4. What part of my argument wasn't supported by the games? How about you try to be a little more specific before throwing that statement out? Also, I've said this before, and you ignored it. Sora had to had his heart practically shattered instead of just stabbed out of his body in order for Xehanort to turn him into a vessel. Why's that? And seeing as Ven's heart is intact and awake within Sora (as proven when you encounter him as Riku after foiling Xehanort's plan and saving Sora from sinking to the darkness, and Ven's reaction to Vanitas in Monstropolis in the KH3 trailers), what does that imply about Ven's availability as a vessel?

And you got any proof it's Xehanort who told Vanitas about Ven's whereabouts? It's possible he sussed out where Ven was entirely on his own through the connection between them.

What made you believe I thought Xehanort was going to intervene and help the Guardians reach and awaken Ven???

5. ...Riku and Maleficent had to find Kairi's body after it vanished from Destiny Islands and got transported to another World via being temporarily swallowed by (and thereby exposed to) the darkness. Her body didn't just land on their laps at Hollow Bastion.

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 13th 2018 at 8:37:35 PM

1. Ansem at this point in time would be fairly busy wouldn't he? Since 0.2 takes place roughly after the Final Keyhole portion of Kingdom Hearts. You are again ignoring the straightforward explanation.

2. Namine didn't know that her meddling would go pear shaped. Story of her life I suppose given what happened after Kingdom Hearts II made a Happy Ending Override of her and Roxas.

3. Xemnas says "Friend" but that's because at the time Terra, Aqua and Ventus where merely a twinkle in Nomura's eye who hadn't been given names yet. Xehanort is also like, a dick who refers to Eraqus as his old friend and Xemnas also refers to his organization members as friends and we all know how he treats them.

4. There is nothing in the games that suggests a body with no heart in it will be resistant to Xehanort's heart, in fact its quite the opposite Xehanort seeks empty vessels like Nobodies or Sora because they would not resist him and its not like he can't place himself into people who still do have their own heart, he did so to Braig/Xigbar.

A pure heart cannot be corrupted and turned to heartless because that would require darkness to be in it but it can be put into peril by being ejected from the body where in it must seek shelter or it may be snuffed out entirely.

Also you said "Ven could still be of use to him without meeting his criteria for the Seekers by taking part in the war on the side of light." which does sound like you think Xehanort was trying to find Ventus for making him a Guardian of Light.

And Xehanort took great lengths to find where Ventus was, so its doubtful that Vanitas would be able to find him on his own and know that Aqua is the key to finding him.

Also in the everyone vs the heartless scene in the trailer, there are Unversed with the Nobodies and the Heartless in the Keyblade Graveyard so Vanitas would still be working with Xehanort by that point.

5. Riku and Sora's bodies where also unharmed by the darkness after being lost in the corridors of darkness. Aqua and Mickey's bodies are also unharmed by darkness and they are stuck in the Realm of Darkness. Darkness hurts the heart but the body typically just goes to sleep in the absence of its heart. Or becomes a Nobody if it became a Heartless. Kairi's body was safe other then that its a living corpse and thus vulnerable to like being eaten by hungry wolves or being stepped on by a giant.

Edited by lycropath on Nov 13th 2018 at 5:50:16 AM

1. Not the entirety of 0.2 takes place during KH1. Due to how time flows differently in the Realm of Darkness, I would not be shocked if the events of 0.2 take place over the course of a few years in the Realm of Light.

2. ...How about, by getting in touch with Lingering Will, Namine actually made a contribution to the story of KH3? There, that sounds better, and it makes more sense than a "Shaggy Dog" Story for a concert-'exclusive' plot point.

3. Then don't even refer to Aqua's armour as anything! Just a warm greeting, and bam, amiable relationship established!

Eraqus did use to be Xehanort's closest friend. The Organisation members are his tools and pawns, not enemies like Aqua and Ven.

4. ...If it's a rule that literally heartless vessels are unable to offer any resistance against being hijacked, then why didn't Xehanort just shank Sora right in the chest with his keyblade and remove his heart right from the get-go? That's far easier, quicker and simpler than wasting time and effort on slowly manipulating him into walking into their trap for an entire game just to shatter his heart while risking being discovered by Riku and Yen Sid. ...Unless simple heart removal wasn't a option? And if that's the case, then is Ven's body, with his heart intact, healed and awake, so vulnerable anymore?

Hence why Kairi's and Ven's hearts found refuge within Sora. I never argued against that.

No. What I meant was that he'll let the Guardians try to awaken and acquire Ven as a member, without helping them.

...Vanitas and Ven used to be one single entity. Xehanort had no such connection to Ven. (...I'm sorry, but did I really need to spell it out to you?)

5. Because Sora, Riku, Aqua and Mickey still had their hearts! But if they had been trapped in that darkness for too long, they would have been eroded by it. Kairi, however, would have been immune to it even with her heart separated from her body.

And speaking of Aqua...

...*points at Aquanort(? Darkling Aqua? Darkling Aquanort?)*

The bodies and souls of people who are attacked and assimilated by the Heartless or engulfed by the darkness either vanish and end up becoming part of the Realm of Darkness, or they reform in Worlds that are situated in the area between the Realms of Light and Darkness (e.g. Castle Oblivion and Twilight Town) as Nobodies (but only if they have sufficient willpower). The Princesses of Heart are exceptional in that they are immune to the darkness and can't turn into Heartless. As such, in the event that their hearts gets separated from their bodies by the darkness, the hearts don't turn into Heartless. And since they can't succumb to the darkness, their bodies may get transported elsehwere, but they'll still remain somewhere within the Realm of Light. That's what's so special about Kairi's body during KH1.

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 13th 2018 at 10:30:52 PM

1. But then we lose the Namine connection since Namine was born when Sora became a Heartless.

2. Then it loses the connection to 0.2 that the scene was supposed to have.

3. The point of the line is to establish that the armor is a figure in Xemnas's past and give off the mystery of "What exactly is Xehanorts relationship with the armor girl in the secret ending." and not just a trinket with a keyblade Xemnas found without giving the girls name away.

Besides since Xemnas's intentions are to find Ventus, he would present himself to Aqua as her friend so he could trick her. Or as Terra said "Use him to make you tell him where Ventus is!"

Xemnas does what he does because its what Xehanort wants. Not Terra, that's established when we found out he knew all along who he was and that his plan was to find vessels for his heart.

4. Because literally every time Xehanort has had a keyblade and Sora at the same time could be counted on one finger. And he tried that time, but Sora blocked it and told him there was no way he is going to take Kairi's heart. And then Sora did it anyway and then Xemnas took Roxas Sora's now (Not so empty) body with the intention of making him into a vessel for his heart.

Ventus and Vanitas don't appear to have any extra special powers for locating one another. Both of them where in the Land of Departure during the Mark of Mastery and Ventus didn't react or anything. Nor would secret sensing powers grant Vanitas the knowledge that Aqua is sheltering Ventus or that he needs her to break the enchantment to touch him which according to the trailers he very does.

And again, the Unversed working alongside the Heartless and Nobodies implies that Vanitas is working alongside Xehanort and not against him.

5. You didn't disprove my point at all, the fact that a pure light once existed in a body does not confer it with special powers to prevent the darkness from entering it. You seem to believe because Ventus's heart is pure light that his body will be immune to darkness even when not inside. His heart of pure light couldn't even protect Sora from the Realm of Sleep beyond giving him armor let alone prevented Xehanort's heart from entering him.

There is also the intention that its likely that Vanitas himself would be the one bringing Xehanort alongside himself into Ventus's meatsuit likely with the Ventus part along for the ride.

Edited by lycropath on Nov 13th 2018 at 7:44:19 AM

calling it right now the battle of 1000 heartless v2 (feat unversed and nobodies) is gonna be either total dogshit or one of the most amazing moments in the history of gaming

As an aside I'm starting to think Mickey somehow combined his two keyblades with the intention that it would let him open the door to darkness and enter (And hopefully exit) the realm of darkness.

On another aside, could Tiana be in a Kingdom Hearts 3? As far as I'm aware she hasn't been in any new videogames since 2016 when this was tweeted of course it could have been for Disney Infinity before it was abruptly canceled although I think this tweet was sent after it had been canceled.

Edited by lycropath on Nov 13th 2018 at 11:47:02 AM

1. ??? Since when was Namine involved in 0.2?

2. There's still the connection of Terra trying (again) to save Aqua and keep her from getting led astray like he was.

3. But why would Xemnas even greet the armour warmly like it's a person who's capable of speech if it was just something he found off the street?

And like I said, if Xemnas was influenced by Xehanort instead of Terra, he still wouldn't have needed to refer to the armour as 'friend' to convince it that's he's Terra. Just coming off as a friend instead of a stranger or enemy would have sufficed. Adding 'friend' at the end of the greeting wasn't necessary.

Xemnas genuinely saw Aqua's armour as a friend, and one of the reasons he talked with it so much was because he wanted to know where his other friend was. Terra's essence was a part of Xemnas' being, and Xemnas could feel and was driven by Terra's longing for the friends he failed.

(A post on another website pointed out that Saix and Xigbar, the men Xemnas chose to be his lieutenants in the first Organisation, happened to have blue hair and a face with darkness-inflicted scars respectively. Who could they have reminded Xemnas of? That could be proof of Terra's influence over him.)

Hence why I stressed that Terra only influenced the decisions that involved Ven and/or Aqua! I did mention that in one of my previous reponses!

4. But there were numerous occasions when Sora was sleeping and defenseless in 3D. Hell, all that dropping and napping accounted for more than half of the entire game! Xehanort had had an abundance of opportunities to just stick his Keyblade into Sora's chest while Riku was awake and active! Heck, he could have done it in the first visit to Traverse Town when he slapped Neku away and Sora fell asleep before he could help!

At the time point you mentioned, Vanitas was aware of Ven's existence and nature, but not vice versa, as Ven had Trauma-Induced Amnesia, and had yet to meet him for the first time from his perspective. Ven also didn't know what Vanitas was until the part of the story leading to the endgame. So it would make sense if Vanitas could sense where Ven was, but not the other way around at that point, like a one-way mirror.

Vanitas is shown sitting on the back of the centre throne of the Land of Departure, not the only throne of the Chamber of Waking in Castle Oblivion. He could have easily used a Corridor of Darkness and teleported to the entrance hall after Aqua goes back home of her own volition (likely with Sora, who will find Master Keeper on Destiny Islands and quite likely save her from the darkness after fighting her as a boss in the Realm of Darkness. He could be on the other side of the kaleidoscopic barrier protecting Ven from Vanitas in the trailers.) and undoes the transformation of Castle Oblivion, which would remove the enchantments that kept the Chamber of Waking inaccessible to anyone but the wielder of Master Keeper.

Vanitas can follow some of Xehanort's orders while pursuing his goals behind his back. Lending Xehanort the Unversed isn't a sign of absolute loyalty.

5. It's a rule that if a person loses their heart (via Heartless or otherwise), then their body either disintegrates (see: Sora after releasing the hearts within him in KH1, and Master Xehanort after Grand Theft Me-ing Terra) and/or gets consumed by the darkness (see: that hapless Traverse Town NPC who turned into a Heartless in KH1). People with remarkably high willpower or hearts of pure light are partial and complete exceptions respectively: The former category recovers and reforms their bodies and souls through force of will, and are 'reborn' as Nobodies (forms vary from lowly Dusks to nigh-identical carbon copies) in the Worlds in-between the Realms of Light and Darkness. The latter category doesn't disintegrate or get consumed by the darkness (Kairi wasn't consumed. The darkness spat her out in another World). Instead, their bodies remain intact, like empty dolls in the Realm of Light.

So, it stands to reason that darkness simply cannot enter the bodies of pure-hearted individuals, even if their hearts (the determinant of their purity) are no longer inside said bodies.

And of course his heart couldn't confer immunity to Sora. The source of the Princesses' immunity is the lack of darkness in their hearts. Sora's body harbours four hearts: Roxas', Xion's, Ven's and his own. Out of all those hearts, only Ven's is pure light. As long as Sora had even a single impure heart inside him, Ven's heart can never make him pure. Thus, he cannot share his immunity with Sora. It's that simple.

Oh? And from where did you infer that Vanitas wants to bring Xehanort along?

Edited by sleeping-in-bloom on Nov 15th 2018 at 12:29:50 AM

I wonder how people would feel if Tiana appeared in her frog form only,like no world specifically for her she's just an NPC talking frog

Frog Sora, Donald and Goofy tho

The Princess and the Frog seems like it lends itself well to a Kingdom Hearts world, given the premise itself. I'd be down for one.

Plus it would mean diversity!

Edited by Ultimatum on Nov 14th 2018 at 9:31:22 AM