World Of Warcraft

This gets into 8.1 and 8.2 spoiler territory a bit, and I've been carefully avoiding as much of that as possible. What I can speculate on is that, since it's established in canon that undead cannot be corrupted by the Old Gods, perhaps N'Zoth is making an indirect play for Sylvanas by manipulating her existing motivations to his own benefit.

This would mean she might end up serving him instead of fighting him... or she could be playing a double-agent role in this regard: pretend to be duped in order to get close enough to strike. Could we get some sort of showdown between Sylvanas and Azshara? Probably not; that's just me going into WMG and wishful thinking. But it would be cool.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2018 at 11:24:22 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I can't see Sylvanas willingly serving anyone. Even under our Horde leaders the Warchief was more a first among equals. From the day she regained her free will not bring subservient to anyone else is a big deal to her and the Forsaken.

That's what I mean by manipulation. Azshara doesn't think she's serving N'Zoth, either, but it works out in his favor in the end. He's the hands-down master at this sort of thing.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

They keep this whole Horde vs Alliance thing and they need to just double down on it. Stop making it 'oooh Sylvanas bad' and truly make it Horde fighting the Alliance. Add in more about the politics that the horde are being strangled by their lack of resources that has barely been mentioned, add in Alliance's dirty laundry.

Make it actual warcraft. Blizzard is far too soft on the war and just trying to make Out of Character Sylvanas the scapegoat. This should be the do or die time for the Horde but people hardly care.

Things need to be brought to a brutal stalemate at minimum before they move on to another enemy. All we have had is a blow to the nelfs then victory after victory for the alliance with the horde being swatted away like flies.

Edited by Memers on Nov 13th 2018 at 9:01:59 AM

See, this is what I mean. It's like you aren't even playing the same game as the rest of us, or just cherry-picking the story elements that suit your argument.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

In what way? Blizzard set everything up in War of Thorns but in game its so half assed and abandoned in favor of TR 8 R! and a complete rout of the horde.

Then explain the "Lost Honor" cinematic. I don't see the Alliance winning victory after victory with the Horde barely on the ropes in-game, either. Well, most of the War Campaign quests involve succeeding in some mission or other, but it's always at significant expense and with the feeling that we're holding the line and squeezing out what victories we can with our limited resources.

Edited to add: Also, Malfurion and Tyrande are badasses and should be able to wipe the floor with Blightfondler.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2018 at 2:52:03 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

One plot point I'm keeping an eye on in this regard is how the Kaldori storyline will intersect with the Anduin sstoryline in the future.

It's already clear that when push comes to shove, Anduin has no ability to force the Alliance military to do what he wants them to do. This isn't because he's a weak person, but because his position doesn't actually have a lot of formal authority outside the boarders of Stormwind.

We saw it in Stormheim with Genn and Rodgers "creatively" interpreting Anduin's orders, and again in 8.1 when Tyrande opens up a whole new front of the war against Anduin's explict recommendation. Anduin can't stop her from doing it, and can't stop Genn from joining the Kaldori in their campaign.

Now Anduin has gone and freed a valuable prisoner who was instrumental in the Horde's campaign through Ashenvale and Darkshore. What's going to happen when Tyrande and the other Alliance leaders find out? And if Saurfang is successful and unseats Sylvanas, will Anduin be able to enforce any subsequent peace deal?

To clarify, Anduin does have authority over Stormwind's forces, so Admiral Rogers going off the reservation is absolutely something he can act on. The rest is accurate: he can persuade and cajole but ultimately he cannot stop Tyrande or Genn from acting as they see fit.

While this may not lead to internal strife per se, it has the effect of diluting the Alliance efforts because they cannot coordinate a combined attack with all of the forces at their mutual command. They did that at Lordaeron. It barely succeeded, and even then only with Jaina's intervention. It seems that, having secured the Eastern Kingdoms (mostly), the Alliance's leaders are focusing on their individual fronts and/or problems.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2018 at 2:44:44 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

But the thing is that Sylvanas started the war before she allied the Zandalari and had no way of knowing that that would happen. All that happens in the Dazar'Alor raid is that the the Alliance removes most of the advantage that Sylvanas unintentionally lucked into completely by accident, and once they do everyone agrees that the Alliance could win the war in a matter of weeks.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Nov 13th 2018 at 10:44:45 AM

RE: Fighteer

Thats another issue with the plot of BFA's faction conflict. The Alliance is given Demigods and Super Heroes like:

• Malfurion the greatest Druid who ever lived.
• Tyrande veteran of WCIII/War of the ancients.
• Jaina: The greatest mage on Azeroth.
• Velen: Ancient being viewed as their greatest threat by Sargeras’s top men.
• Danath and Kurdan: Legendary heroes of the second war.
• Alleria: Legendary hero of the Second War who became the Legion’s archenemy and survived on hostile planets.
• Turlayon: Greatest paladin and legend of the second war who led the army of the Light which defeated the Legion.
• Anduin: Has gotten absurd feats such as resurrecting an entire army and tons of focus in the novels.

Meanwhile the Horde just has:

• Sylvanas: Who is one of the last heroes the Horde even has left from WCIII.
• Rexxar: Horde hero from WCIII who defeated Daelin, which recent lore makes out to be the murder of a defenseless old man to demonize him.
• Rokhan: Scout of the second war and the last two remaining Horde heroes left from WCIII.
• Nathanos: A Good Dark Ranger, but not a superman.
• Liadrin: Talented paladin, but again never portrayed as anywhere the same class as Turlayon.
• Lor’themar: Essentially just a random ranger.
• Baine: A Dirty Coward who is only used to Character Shill Anduin.
• Gallywix: The Load and The Millstone
• Eitrigg: A long retired orc grunt who was recently retconned from a very elderly advisor into a gung ho warrior to have a single orc of note.

Its extremely absurd, even without all the neutral factions that favor Alliance. Thrall not only left the Horde, but he was depowered.

Meanwhile the Horde has never been given any chance to rebuild from all its constant losses throughout Wo W. The writers have assigned a few neutral NPCS of Horde races like Lilian and Garona onto the Hordeside of the faction conflict with little explanation, but its equivalent to using a spoonful of dirt to fill a grave.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 13th 2018 at 2:11:37 AM

And? Even if what you say is true (and I would dispute a lot of that), it means one of several things: the Horde is going to achieve some kind of resurgence to restore parity and pride; the Horde is going to dissolve and something else will take its place; some external conflict is going to render the parity question moot.

Any or all of these would be fine as far as I'm concerned, because I'm not here to wave my banner around in faction pride; I'm here for the story.

I suppose you and the folks who insist that the eternal Horde vs. Alliance conflict is getting stale must not see eye to eye, eh?

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2018 at 5:14:29 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

RE: Fighteer

How would you dispute it? Who are these Horde's heroes that I haven't mentioned? How are the Alliance heroes not an army of superheroes compared to the Horde's shrinking list of respectable characters?

As for

Horde is going to achieve some kind of resurgence to restore parity and pride

People said that:

• The Orcs and Trolls would get a new generation of heroes to replace all the heroes from WCII and WCIII that were pointlessly killed off in Wo W. It never happened and the so called next generation of Orc heroes ended up going heel then getting pointlessly killed off as well. While the only Troll hero ended up immediately dying before he could do anything.
• Horde would recover from the Siege of Orgrimmar.. It never happened either. The orcs got no new heroes and were vilified more then ever, with the entire race treated as a Planet Of Copy Hats of Evil Garrosh and retconned as Evil All Along.
• The Horde would get a role in Legion given the Kalimdor's strong enmity with them. They didn't and wound up as sidekicks helping Neutral Alliance quest givers who went off on anti Horde rants.

So there's plenty of reason to doubt that statement.

The Horde would never be dissolved due to the way Wo W works on a two faction system. Wo W has to have both the Horde and the Alliance survive indefinitely, dissolving either would remove half of their subscribers.

My personal opinion is the faction conflict was bad in Mists of Pandaria and its bad here. There is no reason for it.

All I've seen it do is make the Alliance player base angry at the Horde over their puppy kicking in the story.

Whilst the Horde player base is apathetic as they're given no reason to oppose the Alliance and dissatisfied with the never ending vilification combined with more Horde characters turning heel and dying.

In my honest opinion, very few fans are satisfied with the Horde/Alliance conflict.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 13th 2018 at 2:28:55 AM

~One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong!~

Seriously, that seems way more exaggerated/venomous than anyone else there. Dislike a character of you must, and I'm sure Baine has legit faults but let's avoid insults that come off like a petty hatred of someone who does not exist or like you're searching for something, anything to use to put him down

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 13th 2018 at 4:09:07 AM

Lol, no one has retconned anything about Rexxar adn Proudmoore, you're just making shit up.

RE: Druplesnubb

The images accompanying the Daughter of the Sea depict it that way.

One of the graphic novels also does the same(image link).

Edited by Monsund on Nov 13th 2018 at 3:05:57 AM

That was Garrosh, because Jaina had been so scarred by Theramore her internalized view of Orcs had become an entire race of just him.

Edited by NaraNumas on Nov 13th 2018 at 5:02:37 AM

That's not a retcon, that's In-Universe propaganda and/or Jaina's own guilt ridden perception.

What's the context of that flashback? Because if it's Jaina's, and I suspect it is and from that comic where she covertly visits Boralus, I stand by my statement.

Doesn't the whole "find Jaina amidst visions of her guilt" questline in Drustvar come down to "Daelin's death was his own damn fault"?

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 13th 2018 at 4:14:12 AM

While unreliable recollection is possible, its not stated.

Things like Daelin's negotiation trap nor Rexxar given Daelin plenty of chances to stand down even in the final battle, haven't been mentioned since WC 3 either.

Honestly I don't get what the narrative purpose of destroying Theramore and making Jaina hate orcs was in the first place.

She's remembering all that happened in her life at the ruins of Theramore. The artists depictions of Jaina's other memories events seem accurate.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 13th 2018 at 3:14:07 AM

It's a dramatization of Jaina's feelings of guilt, combined with the Kul Tirans' distorted, third-hand recollection of events. Later in the Alliance story line, Katherine admits freely that Daelin brought his fate on himself.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I'm also gonna speak up in defense of Baine. I haven't read the book in question, but events in BFA make it clear that he knows the Horde is the only chance the Tauren have for survival now. Unless you think the Siege of Mulgore was so the Alliance could leave a fruit basket at Red Rock Mesa.

Edited by RedSavant on Nov 13th 2018 at 7:17:34 AM

It's been fun.

RE:Fighteer

At least they're admitting that, but it still feels like the narrative is glossing over Daelin's Van Helsing Hate Crimes.

RE: Red Savant

Baine responded to the Alliance firebombing Taurajo when the hunters were away, by saying it was a legitimate military target and exiling all Tauren who fought back against the Alliance. He then gave the Alliance intel, allowing them to ambush and kill Tauren warriors.

After that, its hard to see Bain's actions as concerned about his people at all. Even in BFA, Baine doesn't say a word about Sylvanas animating tauren dead but makes a big deal about Derek Proudmoore being raised. He also announces the intent to surrender to the Alliance at Rastakahn's funeral.

The worst part is this was long after fans had constantly expressed their displeasure with this depiction of the character.

After that, I don't see how Baine be seen as someone who cares about tauren first and foremost?

Edited by Monsund on Nov 13th 2018 at 4:32:13 AM

The leaking intel, stink over Proudmoore, and surrendering parts are news to me.

It's been fun.

Keep in mind some of that is still 8.1 spoilers, also I thought Baine merely suggested opening negotiations, not outright surrender, the former of which is a legitimate idea given their position.

Also, where does Baine banishing dissenters from Thunder Bluff come from? I assumed it was War Crimes but I have the book on kindle and the words "exile" and "banish" don't appear anywhere in relation to Baine. The only mention of Taurajo at all is a reference to Baine getting warned by a Grimtotem Shaman (amusingly enough named Stormsong).

I also checked Tides of War and the only mention of exile or banish there is banishing Magatha Grimtotem's followers.

I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't some trumped up exaggeration like Genn "One step away from execution for incompetence" Greymane was.

Edit: There is mention of Camp Taurajo as a military target. Some narration notes that the Alliance believed the Tauren were planning an attack from there, which is probably where the military target thing comes from. That said, the expelling of revenge seekers from Thunder Bluff is a thing.

Regarding "military targets":

Baine notes he'd probably be ordered by Garrosh to kill any prisoners after that, but that'd be distasteful to him in any case so I didn't include it.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 13th 2018 at 6:00:28 AM

Baine said the surrendering comment to Talanji, whilst she was grieving at her father's funeral, right after her home was attacked and her father killed by the Alliance. The writers intention or not, telling a grieving daughter she should forgive and accept her father's killers right after the event is a Kick the Dog moment.

the tauren who chose to strike back at the Alliance from Vendetta Point, were expelled from Thunder Bluff but otherwise suffered no repercussions.

There you go. Its a Moral Event Horizon considering the Tauren fighting back are all ones who've lost friends and family against the military Alliance forces and they are only attacking legitimate military targets.

But according to current Baine, attacking legitimate military targets is bad when its done against the Alliance.

I miss the original Baine.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 13th 2018 at 5:03:47 AM