During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I can't QUITE remember, but I think he was the leader. He sure spent a lot of time trying to pressure Thao into joining.
The gang rape and drive by might push him over but it's questionable as hell IMO and the gritty tone of the film isn't helping me see him as exactly backflipping over baseline.
I should probably also mention that Walt deliberately got himself killed by pretending that he was pulling out a gun.
Caesar
Happy, if late, 'Yes' to Emilia!
Leaning 'Nay' on the Shack-Dweller though, sounds pretty standard fare for EC Comics tbh
I honestly have had issues with Spider for awhile now, not necessarily because of heinousness, mind...just because he barely differentiates himself from his cohorts, and they come off less "pure evil monstrous sociopaths" and moreso "despicable little shithead thugs."
They're heinous enough maybe (since the rape was his cousin, and the drive-by shooting could have killed an entire group of family members), I just feel like Spider blends in with the other goons enough that it's hard for me to say he's particularly stand-out, especially since the character "Smokie" seems to be just as much of a leader as Spider is. Smokie is the one who comes up with the idea to burn Thao's face with a cigarette and carries it out—actually ordering Spider around during that scene—and Smokie is also the one with the most dialogue in the final "shootout".
Add on top that the gang only escalates their attacks on the family after Walt assaults Smokie, and he ends up being portrayed as more of the "leader" than Spider.
Edited by Ravok on Oct 26th 2020 at 5:25:49 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The fact he rapes his own cousin might is nasty but if he's not the only one calling the shots and his whole group are pretty well interchangeable assholes I gotta say cut.
Cut Spider; abstain on the EC comics guy.
The Draftsman of Doom
Showtime!
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the EC Comics guy
Goku Black
Hey plenty of optimistic works have that one guy whose an evil jackass inspite of that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Catching up: Yes to the Ghost Rider duo. Madeleine...NGL, the zombie apocalypse that 'devastated the world?' Bootle, I'm taking it on some faith this is played for the horror it sounds. It's the only thing giving her a shot.
Augus...seems a bit of a slim EP, but...well, seems to hit every point, so I'll give a yea.Likewise, Malviticus sounds like a yea.
Regarding Deus Ex Machina...anyone know this one? Regarding Emilia...the answer is yes, she's easily heinous enough.Scarlemagne almost kills the gathered Mutes. Emilia is willing to kill tons more and go for full genocide.
For the Shack guy...TBH, I'm not sure.
Personally I think the gang rape and him being the leader does push him over the edge.
About Deus Ex Machina, a lot of the work seems to be lost (the ones Phillips appears in, the first two episodes, are some of the only ones that I can find)
Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 26th 2020 at 6:18:58 AM
Stellarvore watched the movie and nicely laid out his crimes for us. I'm not a fan of one person trying to halt the whole process and act like we're not thinking about it before voting. I've looked into it myself and I'm not changing my stance on sticking with a cut.
If you look through Ravok's post as well, you'll see further issues addressed too.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 26th 2020 at 9:19:32 AM
Goku Black
Cut spider.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Okay, I got us another Acclaim for tonight, too. If this guy isn't my last, he'll be among them...still haven't decided on the Big Bad of Eternal Warriors, Mog; he's a mass-murdering son of a bitch and I think he undersells his redeeming qualities but he might not be heinous enough compared to fellow immortal Johnny Six.
Speaking of Johnny Six? This guy spans both Solar: Man of the Atom—the Hell on Earth miniseries—as well as the first two issues of Armorines.
Who is Johnny Six? What has he done?
Johnny Six ("Anyone got a smoke?") is a three-hundred-year-old would-be member of the Forever Family (a family of superpowered immortals), a mortal acolyte of theirs who "washed out" of becoming a full member of the family but managed to steal the secrets of their immortality as well as some of their technology. Johnny Six has been stewing in his own hate for three centuries and has devised a way to annihilate the entire world solely so he can take the Forever Family down, even if it means his own death—"we all get to go to Hell together." To do this, he means to exploit the powers of the reality-warping Seleski Twins.
Johnny Six is first seen as the co-pilot of a falling airplane headed straight for the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca, deliberately doing nothing and letting the plane crash into the middle of the city, killing thousands while he walks out of the carnage unsinged. Using his hallucinogenic cigarette smoke, Johnny Six hypnotizes a bunch of soldiers into shooting dead the man interrogating him before dispersing them to violently slaughter dozens of people outside Saudi Arabia's Great Mosque. Johnny Six embeds Seleski's name over the carnage to link them to the massacre...and then he starts repeating it.
Johnny Six does the whole "slaughter dozens outside of important religious/political points" a whole bunch over the whole world, always scrawling in Seleski's name afterward. He crashes a helicopter into the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem while widening schisms between countries. Eventually, Johnny Six has killed so many people and tossed the blame so many ways the world plunges into nuclear warfare and full-out wars with millions dying. Johnny Six tries to use this as part of a complex scheme to overwhelm the Seleskis and drive them into tearing open a black hole that will devour all of Earth, all so he can take the Forever Family "to Hell with him." Johnny Six even kills a random woman's dog, turns it into a burger and eats it in front of her before his plans are stopped.
Consigned to a metal suit, Johnny Six returns in alliance with the sinister Spider Aliens in Armorines. Johnny Six now intends to lead the Spider Aliens in invading Earth and butchering all humanity in revenge for his previous defeat. Johnny Six has an entire village horrifyingly slaughtered and made prey for the Spider Aliens before he's finally blasted to ash by the heroes.
Any mitigating factors?
Utterly zilch. Johnny Six might very well have the highest body count of any candidate in the Acclaim universe. He incites nuclear war, he murders thousands and thousands of people, he tries to destroy the world twice, he's godawful even down to the petty details of what he does with that one lady's dog. He's an immortal, which means he's on the upper rungs of the overall universe's power tier and he's clearly worse than others arguably even stronger than him like Mog.
Conclusion?
Easy keeper. Easiest from the Acclaim universe, period.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
six
Yea to Johnny
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes Johnny.
I’m against cutting Spider. It’s not just simply he single-handedly raped Sue, he had HIS WHOLE GANG do it. Add on the torment he instills on Thao and murdering Walt and he clears the bar at least. Also, Walt’s actions, even if overkill, were done in the context of war and are not shown. to keeping him.
Billy Lee gets four people killed while only killing one himself and yet all that and being a cult leader still qualifies him while Miles is a guilt-ridden solider who killed 182. Not a bar.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 26th 2020 at 7:00:48 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yea to Johnny.
Ravok made some good points here.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:00:10 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Spider being their cousin and co-leader differentiates him enough. If not, maybe EP both him and Smokie then in that case?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 26th 2020 at 7:05:00 AM
Showtime!
to Johnny
I'd be willing to have my mind changed.
Caesar
Easy 'Yes' to Johnny Six, great work spying out a new and arguably the worst Acclaim baddies!
Yeah, look, Spider is already scraping the bottom of the barrel here. He takes part in a gang rape of his cousin, he takes part in tormenting Thao, and he takes part in the drive-by.... that's it. Killing Walt is barely heinous since he made them think he was going to shoot them, and everything else? All 5 of the gang are in on. Nothing Smokie or Spider do is unique. They don't mistreat the other gang members, and the mere fact that there's no established leader only further murkies the waters.
Spider isn't giving the orders, Smokie might be but it's not explicit, so what's that leave? A gang of 5 thugs who all share the same crimes, with one only standing out because he's named and a cousin to a main character. That's not "above the bar" enough for me when 5 people are all doing the same crimes with glee, and the only claim to fame one has is that he's a family member to their victims.
Edited by Ravok on Oct 26th 2020 at 7:16:55 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Haven't seen the work and might message my brother since he's a fan but Stell raises a fair question, he's got: a rape, brutal beating/torture of one person and killing... the protagonist? If the dude is the leader of the gang he's mentioned to be in I'm not so sure myself.