Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Well I was just interested in the comic book section and I'm a bit late to the party here, so I thought it would be a good to ask about, so I don't end up bringing up old discussions.

The thing I think to add are some of the characters from Comic Book:52, the YMMV section mentions Lex Luthor, Lady Styx, Bruno Mannheim, Chang Tzu, although it has no description as to why any of them count.

Its been a while since I read that series, so my memory of it is not the best, but Lady Styx didn't show up enough to be a CM and since this in cannon with Post Crisis DC, Lex Luthor would not be a CM, because he has had Pet the Dog moments in other stories.

Bruno Mannheim and Chang Tzu are likely keepers, Mannheim being the leader of a Religion of Evil cult, murdering people who question him and then having their corpses dragged off the kitchen so he can eat them later. Chang Tzu killed a minion because he might of laughed at him behind his back. Both of them were involved in a plan to take over Kahndaq, the country where Black Adam was ruling in order to use it as a base and safe haven for their criminal organization. They use suicide bombers to undermine Black Adam's rule, present him a female slave to encourage him to comply, Black Adam decides to free from her captors and they fell in love. However Chang and Mannheim were able to murder Black Adam's new adopted family with the help of WM Ds from Apokolips. So the story reasons why they are C Ms are kinda long and involved, so it would be a bit tricky to give them a short and proper write up, that is not too dependent on knowing continuity.

edited 22nd Sep '13 8:39:31 PM by TheOverlord

I can't remember discussing those two before. From what I remember, they're keepers in 52

Chang Tzu...ignoring his former identity as Yellow Peril Ethnic Scrappy Egg Fu (somebody at DC should be beaten for that, pun intended), I wonder if he's really done enough to stand out among his fellow DC villains. He certainly wouldn't be the first to try and overrun a country, and wreck most of it in the process.

Who else but Grant Morrison and his "everything is canon" policy would bring that character back, amirite?

No idea, HT, no idea.

With Chang it depends, are we comparing him to the rest of the DC Universe or just other villains that appear in the 52 story? Do we compare comic characters to an entire universe or simply within their particular title? And again, it kind goes back to grand scale evil plots vs. more personal acts of cruelty. Chang created the Four Horsemen of the Apokolips, which did murder Black Adam's family in rather cruel way. One of the Horsemen (Sobek) appeared to be a friendly creature and befriended Black Adam and his family and ends up tricking one of them (Osiris) into lower his guard and then Sobek devoured him.

You gotta give extra evil points to betraying someone's trust, that just makes something extra cruel.

So who bears moral responsibility for these crimes, these creatures or the man who created them and sent them on their task?

I think Bruno is a keeper either way.

edited 22nd Sep '13 9:19:00 PM by TheOverlord

Also worrying: the same storyline had a character with "Asian Babymama" as her power.

Regardless, the story was still really good.

That's going even beyond worrying. Yeesh.

We compare people to the other characters in their title. That being said, when we start dealing with general threats like Chang Tzu it becomes trickier. He showed up in 52 yes, not a specific character's title?

He showed up in 52, that is correct. But again, is not more fair compare him to other villains within that particular story, rather then every other DC villain ever? I still think he gets points, for sheer cruelty, he set up Sobek as a sleeper agent, he knew that would involve betraying people's trust and playing on their sympathies and knew the murder would be particularly gruesome when one of them let their guard down, a villain always seem more vile when they do things like that.

edited 22nd Sep '13 9:31:55 PM by TheOverlord

Mannheim, however, is not just in 52. He's a fairly longrunning member of Intergang, putting him in the Superman Rogues Gallery. That means we have to compare him to the rest of said rogues gallery, which means trying to stack him against Luthor, Brainiac, Mongul I, and a whole host of other deeply horrible people. Mannheim didn't really manage to stand out before 52, had one good moment, and then didn't do anything really significant afterwards. He fails the heinous standard when compared to the competition, and with the reboot having gone down, he hasn't had the chance to top himself since. Throw in his "rebirth" on Apokolips, and I'm even more doubtful, because once Darkseid and rebirthing are involved there are serious questions about moral agency.

Chang Tzu I'd feel more comfortable judging by 52, since his Egg Fu incarnation isn't in continuity any more, and he only has appeared in 52. But Bruno has pre-and-post 52 continuity and fails to qualify in any of them. Couple that with his doubtful agency and he's definitely out for me.

EDIT: As for Chang Tzu...he might be the worst person in 52, but that doesn't change the fact that most of his competition has a laundry list of horrible acts from other stories. Chang might be worse than say, Luthor, within 52 proper, but he isn't worse than Luthor throughout the wider DC Universe. So I'm also going to vote down on him, though not as strongly as on Mannheim. A good counterargument might persuade me.

edited 22nd Sep '13 9:47:02 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Huh. I saw just now that Todd and the Neo-Nazis were added for Breaking Bad. I could have sworn there was a note on the Breaking Bad page not to add new examples until the show was over. Guess not.

I'm not saying they don't qualify (although the Neo-Nazis raise the no groups issue), but I don't get why people can't just wait one more episode.

Because Todd already qualifies. If there's more to him, we'll change it. That's why there's an EDIT button up there. As to why people can't just wait for one more episode...You think at this point there is anyone who disagrees that Todd is a Complete Monster. Just saying.

edited 23rd Sep '13 8:14:25 AM by forsetipurge

Because would it be SO difficult to just wait one single solitary week, see how it ends and then discuss and write him up after?

He did bring Jessie ice cream

That.

Personally, I think Todd almost certainly qualifies, although I have some slight unease in that he's a character that calls into question any meaningful way of distinguishing Affably Evil from Faux Affably Evil.

edited 23rd Sep '13 8:29:36 AM by Hodor

You think at this point there is any troper who believes in one episode Todd can atone for all the things he'd done. Do you?

I think it's pretty clear Todd is an established sociopath incapable of genuine emotion or goodwill. Between him and Uncle Jack, I think Jack is the more clear cut keeper, but I think both almost definitely qualify.

It doesn't matter. this is a policy for a reason. We waited until Ramsay Bolton was revealed in Game Of Thrones before adding him, we waited until Joffrey finished out season 1, we waited until Captain America to list the Red Skull for film.

No, none of us believe Todd will redeem himself. Like, at all. He might, might reveal he genuinely loves Walt, or Jack, or that he has a disorder that wrecks his moral agency. Do I believe it will happen? No. That doesn't mean I can't wait six days to see the show end, and then we can bring him up. We're not in a hurry.

A good example of why we don't hurry, IMO, would be Azula from Avatar The Last Airbender who, while being an utterly heinous and cruel individual with almost no redeeming qualities becomes sympathetic in the finale when her loneliness, paranoia and mother issues take hold and she ends a sobbing, pitiful wreck who's as much a victim of her controlling, abusive father as anyone else.

edited 23rd Sep '13 8:44:27 AM by Lightysnake

Having sympathetic moments does not change a character's deeds. That Azula is reduced to a pitiful wreck at the end doesn't change the fact that she is a sadistic sociopath. More to the point, what you have is a guideline, not an absolute red line. All you have right now is "please let's just wait"—for what? You don't even believe Todd will ever redeem himself yourself. Again, if something happens in the series finale, you can change it as you like. Until then, you have no legitimate evidence that justifies your deletion of Todd's entry. The guy has already qualified; leave his entry be.

And you've deleted the street dealer entry which is already approved. Be careful the next time you delete stuff.

No, they don't take away from a character's deeds, but they do take away from a character being a monster. You can have horrible actions, and nothing will change Azula, under all of it, being a sad, broken, lonely girl who is a victim of her father. Is she a sadist and terrible person? yes. Is she a complete monster? Hell no.

to this point, we're being nice. The 'please wait' is for that benefit. I don't want to have to get a mod over this and have the page locked, because I assure you, the decision to enforce a long standing rule we have won't be a difficult one.

We're not saying "Todd doesn't count". He does, but we've been surprised before and finales have removed characters from the running before. So just wait.

And we voted to cut the street dealer entries, actually. The only ones we've approved are The Cousins.

edited 23rd Sep '13 9:06:38 AM by Lightysnake

Go involve the mods if you like; you still have to explain to the mods why you delete an entry that has the full backing of the show and its actors themselves. And no, the street dealer entry are there in Monster/Live-Action TV. Go check it out.

Oh, good, missed that one. I'll submit that cut to the Edits thread, then.

I also don't think you get how it works here. We are not saying no to Todd, we are saying "hold off one week." The backing of the actors is the absolute picture of irrelevance as we don't let word of god dictate whether one is a CM or not.

I gotta ask: Do you wait until Buffy is over to add Angelus?

edited 23rd Sep '13 10:27:03 AM by forsetipurge

It's better to wait so that we can write a full, complete entry once without having to go back and rewrite the entry every week to include the latest horrible deeds the character has done.

Angelus was sucked into hell at the end of season 2, and his arc as a Big Bad ended. While he had since resurfaced on Angel, he, to my recollection, did not resurface on Buffy in the present.

a better question would be if we wait until Buffy was over to add Caleb which we would. The question isn't the show being over, but the character's arc. Todd and Jack's are intrinsically tied to the show's finale.

Now, one could make the argument we'll have to edit, saaay...Malekith the Accursed's entry as he has recently appeared in the comics again and is proving himself worse than ever. Problem there is Malekith had been dead since the 80/90s, so updating his is less of a hassle

edited 23rd Sep '13 10:47:36 AM by Lightysnake

The dealers are already added again and the page is locked (temporarily). This is really a heavy case of Single-Issue Wonk.

edited 23rd Sep '13 11:55:49 AM by Forenperser