Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Epic Facepalm-Time on the Saw YMMV

• Xavier Chavez in Saw II; even Jigsaw has more redeeming qualities than this guy.
• Complete monster? Xavier didn't actually initiate any physical confrontation with anyone. All he wanted was the numbers on the back of everyone's head. He fought Jonas because Jonas thought he was trying to kill him when Xavier said "Turn around." Daniel slashed Xavier's throat without Xavier laying a hand on him, nor Amanda.
• Well, there is the fact that he more or less bullied Amanda (who he probably deemed the weakest of the group) into going (read: being thrown against her will) into the Needle Pit. But other than that, it's not like he was out murdering people for fun like Jason Voorhees.

I think we decided that Xavier (and Hofmann) counted, right? Replaced this nattery mess with this entry

• Xavier Chavez in Saw II was by far the biggest Asshole Victim of Jigsaw's victims. While Jonas tried to keep everyone together and alive, Xavier only wanted to save his own skin. First he forced Obi into the incinerator, than he dropped Amanda into the basin of needles (which was HIS test), than he killed Jonas and left Maddison to die and last, he tried to kill Amanda and Daniel, all just to get their numbers.

Does Saw HAVE any monsters? Even Jigsaw seems like a WIE (albeit twisted).

That's why he isn't listed.

Hoffman and Xavier on the other hand were complete and utter bastards.

Hoffman sure, but Xavier I don't know. Asshole Victim sure, but CM?

Honestly from the description Xavier really doesn`t sound like a CM. Especially when the guy who put everyone in that position doesn`t qualify. Also I`m having trouble finding discussion on him.

edited 16th Aug '13 4:06:56 PM by TommyFresh

The thing with Xavier...he was already a scumbag drug dealer and gangster before Jigsaw targeted him. During the tests, he's the least helpful, and his test is to find a key hidden in a pit of syringes. So he grabs the weakest member of the group, throws her in and forces her to get the key.

when he realizes that the combination to a safe containing the poison antidote are tattooed to the backs of everyone's necks, he decides to go and kill everyone for their numbers. he leaves one woman caught in a trap to bleed to death and tries to kill Amanda and a young boy as well.

I really, REALLY loathe the Saw franchise, but if anyone else...Xavier is probably an example of a complete monster Asshole Victim.

The previous stuff may have been Offscreen Villainy, and he IS trying to survive.

I've never cared for the Saw films, but this Xavier character sounds like a keep.

Trying to survive is one thing. Everyone in that is. The thing is, survival is possible, and even likely if they work together. Especially as the success rate is pretty good if they assist one another.

Xavier sounds like a keep to me, but who's Hoffman?

Hoffman is one of Jigsaw's successors. As opposed to Jigsaw, Hoffman is doing what he does to kill people in horrible ways.

Yeah, see, HOFFMAN is a qualifier. He's worse than Xavier.

He also has access to Jigsaw's seemingly endless network of traps and connections, and can utilize the police force, where Xavier is just a low-rent drug dealer from the street corner.

On Hoffman and Xavior: Xavior was an Asshole Victim in the second saw movie, a drug dealer who had been arrested by officer Eric Matthews. He and seven others (including Eric's son, Daniel) were kidnapped by Jigsaw and placed in a house with a deadly gas, they had to find some antidotes (one for each victim) to survive. Upon finding his antidote (just for him) locked inside a door, he discovers he has to search a needle pit for a key to the door, instead, he throws Amanda into the pit and forces her to search for him. She gets many needles stuck in her arms as he thows her down into the pit. All the while he's yelling at her and thretning her to get her to search. When Amanda fails to find the key in time, he goes over to attack her when she's already in terrible pain. e Later discovers an antidote in a safe and that the numbers for the combination are written on the backs of everyones necks. He murders Jonas to get his number, and descides to do the same to everyone else. He leaves Addison to die in a trap instead of helping her out, and chases after Amanda and Daniel with a knife to kill them for their numbers. While he was doing all this to survive, it's clear tha he only cares about himself and doesant care if he has to kill the others to live. He sees them all as expendable and doesant care if they die as long as he lives. He show no remorse for what he has to do to the others.

Hoffman was Jigsaws succesor. He started off sort of sympathetic, as in the fifth movie it was rvealed that his sister was murdered by her boyfriend and that he loved her. He came to work for Jigsaw after the law failed him and the boyfriend got set free. By the end of the last movie however, all symapathy is gone, as the film has him massacre an entire police station. By the end of the film, it's unclear if the city even has a police force anymore. It's also shown that he no longer cares bout Jigsaws code, as he is willing to kill innocint people in cold blood just to keep himself from getting caught.

Was Jeff Fecalman cut already? I didn't see him in the CN page for Complete Monster.

If Eddy's Brother is still open, then I'm giving my solid for him and there are four main reasons why I think he passes as heinous by the standards of the story and even for the trope in general:

1: The only thing "slapstick" about his physical abuse of Eddy is the animation. Animating these actions in this way is the only way they can get away with showing him throwing Eddy against a door repeatedly, literally twisting his leg around, and spinning him over onto the pavement. The way the scene is played out is that this is serious child abuse, the other kids have never seen abuse like this before (even from them!) and are thus appalled, and the Kankers (who are trailer trash boy-molesters) have an Even Evil Has Standards moment. This demonstrates that this is the most heinous thing to darken up this series. So unlike Jeff, Eddy's Brother cannot be disqualified on the grounds of "other characters have done it before and it was Played for Laughs, therefore the work doesn't have standards against it." Because clearly THIS level of beatdown on the protagonists has not been done before. This is a whole different league from the other kids' regular slapstick that is ultimately harmless in the end.

2: Part of the horror for the characters and audience also comes from the fact that he's abusing his own brother: his own blood. Now you might think "but what about Sarah and Ed?" Well as much of a Double Standard as it may be, Sarah abusing her brother Ed is a different matter because Sarah is the younger sibling. Ed's bigger and stronger, and if he chose to he could easily lay the beatdown on Sarah. He chooses not to because he's both stupid and nice. With Eddy and his brother, this is the older, bigger sibling abusing the younger, littler one. Worse, it's a young adult abusing a kid. Eddy's Brother is literally the only adult character in the series, and that he does this when he shows up really puts him in a heinous light.

3: It's not just the physical abuse that makes it heinous. It's that coupled with the psychological abuse he dishes out as well. He enjoys making Eddy feel afraid, powerless, humiliated, and uncool. Even when Eddy tries to laugh it off and back out of it after the first round of "playing Uncle", his brother forces the abuse back on to him because the fun had just begun for him. With his given motive for this being "He's my little bro. He's always been little.", he indicates to having done this through Eddy's whole childhood. (And Offscreen Villainy doesn't count here because he says this while in the act of doing the thing in question.) The biggest thing to realize here: this is the reason for all of Eddy's Jerkass behavior throughout the entire series. All 70 episodes/specials of it. It takes a real beast to mess a kid up like that in general, let alone his own kid brother. And there is no other character like that in Ed Edd And Eddy as far as we can tell, so this puts Eddy's brother up there as a thoroughly nasty animated villain.

4: It says something that Ed Edd And Eddy could qualify as a Sadist Show, and yet this guy is the only true sadist to ever appear. Again, this makes him stand out above all the other characters. And usually those other characters have reasons for doing mean things, even in this very movie where all the other kids want payback for a scam gone horribly wrong. Then along comes this guy who bullies others For the Evulz. And it comes right out of left field, too! When Eddy's brother asks if he and Eddy could "play Uncle" for old times sake, there is absolutely no build up, no warning, no reason for the following moment to happen. It just does because Eddy's brother just chooses to do it for amusement, which is another reason why the other characters are so horrified and revolted by him. He gets off on the pain of others who are smaller and weaker than him, especially his little brother. In fact, his sadism plays into his defeat. The reason he goes down so easily when the door hits him even when Eddy had kept consciousness despite being slammed against that same door repeatedly is because Eddy's been abused like that so much that he's more used to the pain, even if it hurts. His brother, on the other hand, has always been the one dealing the pain and never receiving it. The sensation of pain is new and alien to him as it literally smacks him in the head, and he gets a concussion from it. Hurting others while never getting hurt himself made him softer and weaker in the end, which makes for a very karmic defeat.

I could also add how he has absolutely no redeeming qualities to speak of in his five minutes of fame, and is portrayed in such a way that makes it unlikely he'd ever change his ways. And how everything about him, right down to the voice acting, was pure evil and menacing. But I'm pretty sure he's not going anywhere and will stay a closed case. Even so, I had to throw my reasoning out there as to why he belongs on the trope as it is.

edited 16th Aug '13 9:44:35 PM by ANewMan

I requested Jeff cut awhile ago.

...So your first point is that his truly heinous actions are offscreen. That is very much convincing me he's not worth keeping in.

Second point; That... really doesn't matter enough. It's still not any better than the rest.

Third point; Is this all backstory or onscreen. If it's just backstory, then cut.

Fourth point; It's definitely a sadist show. Sorry, but there's no other type of comedy it really fits better into. Most slapstick generally tends to go that way. And the show isn't that funny in the slapstick way, it's really almost as close as many Adult Swim shows, minus the actual deaths.

Yeah, this piece of news really gives it a for his brother. Unless all of that is onscreen, I can't see how he truly applies overall.

So Cohaagen stands at 4 cut, 0 keep. I suppose that's enough to call.

Regarding Saw, I've got to agree with ACW. I wanted to bring these characters up somewhere down the line, because I really don't see how someone, no matter how big a scumbag, can be classified as a CM based purely on doing horrible things to survive extreme circumstances forced upon them by a crazed serial killer (his drug dealing career is all Offstage Villainy). He's not just pointlessly killing people for pleasure in the house or in the outside world with many options open to him, everyone in that house was under considerable time constraint before they all die coughing up their lungs from Jigsaw's gas. IIRC Jacob's murder was largely an accident from miscommunication, and Xavier doesn't start killing people to get their numbers until there are only minutes left and they're already dropping dead one by one. He's even willing to mutilate himself by carving out the number on the back of his neck just to survive.

It's a similar situation with Peter from Final Destination 5 (currently on the Film subpage), who unlike Xavier wasn't even a criminal and by all accounts just seems like a nice guy (He also has a girlfriend, which the entry completely forgets about). His life and that of his friends is severely threatened by an omnipresent, cunning, and sadistic cosmic force, sees multiple people die in front of him, and learns there's a way to get out of dying a gruesome death at Death's hands that will require murder to steal someone's else time.

They're driven to do terrible things out of self-preservation because of circumstances forced upon them by greater forces, and for that reason I can't qualify them.

Hoffman however is a solid keep. He's by far the worst and most heinous villain in those films. His crimes accumulate over time because of his habit of getting away from retribution repeatedly, and unlike Jigsaw and his apprentices he sees no higher purpose in their death traps or that he's punishing people for their sordid lifes, he just wants to satiate his sadism.

edited 17th Aug '13 1:43:21 AM by Morgenthaler

So Eddy's Brother is 9 cut, 7 keep, 2 "it's already on the list" which I don't count because one of them specifically was essentially a "shut up and drop it" vote but that's just me. And even in the events of ties, we've always erred on the side of caution and treated that as a cut.

I'm honestly not seeing it here. By people's admissions it's the same level of violence showed in the show, it's just played seriously instead of for laughs. It's basically the same as Jeff from Family Guy and we cut Jeff for just that reason.

For Xavier from Saw I vote cut. He's been poisened during the movie which is affecting his moral agency (in that by the end he really is lacking in choices but to kill everyone as there is only one antidote in the safe and two others around who also need it), and he's overshadowed by other villians (offscreen) crimes.

edited 17th Aug '13 1:45:03 AM by Shaoken

Actually, I'm pretty sure in the event of a tie, it's "status quo." If we're trying to add an entry and it's a tie, we leave them off. To cut, and it's a tie, we leave them where it is.

Also, since when does the poison affect his moral agency? It simply made him desperate. The 'lack of options' was entirely Xavier's fault, and if he had just worked with everyone, all of them would've been saved.

You'll notice everyone else is poisoned but doesn't turn into a violent psychotic trying to murder everyone else unlike him.

edited 17th Aug '13 1:47:36 AM by Lightysnake

I vote to cut Eddy's Brother, if I haven't already.

Alright, me, Lighty, Very Melon, Camberf and bobg vote in favor of keeping Xavier, ACW, Tommy Fresh, Shaoken and Morgenthaler are for cut.

Thats 5:4 in favor of keeping. Anyone else?

edited 17th Aug '13 1:55:16 AM by Forenperser

You may be jumping the gun a bit. Let's first see where this discussion leads. There's no hurry to call votes just yet.

Asking "Anyone else?" is usually a sign that you haven't concluded the vote counting yet. So not "jumping the gun".

I'll look over this for a moment.

@ Lightysnake: Well dying makes people do rash and reckless things, and half of his henious acts listed are when one person has already died from the poisioning, another has gotten herself caught in a deathtrap, one's a kid and the other is secretly Jigsaw's apprentice whose actually much more henious than Xavier is. Also you're thinking of the wrong movie; V was the one where had they all worked together they would have all survived. II had plenty of death traps that were specifically designed so that only one person could attempt them.

With Eddy's brother and the tie, my main objection to keeping him on there was that he was essentially snuck on the list originally as he was brought up at a time where we were dealing with a few dozen examples at once and fell through the cracks. We never had a proper debate on him before.