Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I don't think Jimmy O's death creates any sympathy for him. He does accept it with courtesy and cheerily tells Chibs good luck, but it doesn't seem any good part of him is genuine.

That said you make good points on Stahl

By the way, while randomly flipping through old pages of the thread, I came across this post which never seems to have been resolved, as discussion was irreversibly derailed in just three posts.

I have a doubt. If you are pretty sure that a character qualifies for the status of Complete Monster and already has an entry, but has never been analyzed and given approval in this thread, would it be necessary to show the entry about them in this thread for evaluation?

Don't know if it'd be NECESSARY, but it wouldn't hurt (especially if they're only on the YMMV page but not the CM page).

That's a keeper for me there

Hmmm... You know what? I think I will talk about that one at a later time. I think I have found a current example of Complete Monster that does not really fit the description.

I have seen that, earlier in the thread, the Ebon Dragon from Exalted was voted to keep. I would actually like to contest this decision.

The Ebon Dragon cannot be a Complete Monster. The Ebon Dragon, like all of the Yozi and the Primordials, is a concept given life, and thus unable to work outside the concept it represents. In the Ebon Dragon's case, as the concept of Evil that he is, he can't help but do evil things like planning evil schemes, betraying and overall being a dick. Therefore, he lacks the capability to make moral choices. This instantly disqualifies him from Complete Monster status, if we are to follow the guidelines of the FAQ in the very first page of this thread.

edited 7th Jul '13 10:59:29 AM by Sachiko

From what I hear elsewhere and from the entry, though, he's kind of like Ahriman. In that he chooses to be such. In fact, his entry states he creates a being of goodness just to contrast with himself and to be even more cruel, like how Ahriman creates the peacock just to show he can be good, but chooses not to.

He only did so because it is part of his nature to be a dick and do bad things even towards himself. And how do you do bad things to someone who's pure evil? You create someone who is pure goodness to oppose him.

edited 7th Jul '13 11:24:33 AM by Sachiko

Do you have a place I can read the info on him?

There's actually a lot of material that talks about him, most of it being corebooks. Roll of Glorious Divinity: Demons and Ghosts dedicates some paragraphs to the Yozis in the Demons section. The Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals also contains stuff about the Yozis, including the Ebon Dragon. Return of the Scarlet Empress also contains stats for him, including his Infernal Urge, which defines its nature. In particular, the part where his Urge is described states that defying it, therefore betraying his own nature, is actually in concordance with his nature because, while he's not being a dick towards someone else, he's being a dick towards himself by denying himself a chance to do what his nature dictates him to do. For him, everything is an act of evil towards someone. When it is not an act of evil towards others, it is an act of evil towards himself.

edited 8th Jul '13 3:33:45 AM by Sachiko

the Yu Yu Hakusho page needs work, I could make strong arguments against 90% of these entries now that I m watching it again and it's all coming back:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/YuYuHakusho

edited 8th Jul '13 3:53:36 AM by shoboni

I would say that none of the Yozis, Primordials, or other "divine" beings from Exalted should count for Complete Monster, mainly because of the Blue-and-Orange Morality problem. The rules of mortals simply don't apply to them.

RE: Sons of Anarchy:

@ Lightysnake: I can see your point on O'Phelan. It would be easier to qualify him if instead of accepting his defeat he just threw a Dying Curse at Chibs, but since his sincerity is questionable, I'm doing a full analysis of this character.

Who is He?

Jimmy O'Phelan is a member of the True IRA, an Irish criminal syndicate involved in gun running with the motorcycle gangs in California, chiefly SAMCRO.

What has he done?

O'Phelan ran Chibs out of the IRA years before, for reasons that haven't been revealed, then married his wife Fiona and adopted his daughter Kerianne. When he tries to mend the business relation with SAMCRO he meets with Chibs again, gloats that he took what was his, and threatens to dump Fiona because she's become too old and marry Kerianne next. Enraged, Chibs gives him up to the authorities, and O'Phelan flees back to Ireland. He withholds information about Jax's kidnapped baby son Abel to maintain the good dealings with SAMCRO. He goes rogue when the IRA intends to demote him for his failure in the States, and he plans to destroy So A's Belfast chapter to take over the IRA himself. He tries to have SAMCRO killed in an explosion, and Fiona and Kerianne have to be put under IRA protection because he poses a threat to their safety. He kills an IRA member trying to take Fiona and Kerianne back, and tortures and executes another one to find Abel. He murders the adoptive family Abel was placed with. He takes Abel hostage, then exchanges him for another hostage whom he later kills. He tries to escape to South America through the Russian mob, but is double crossed and given up to SAMCRO, who kill him.

Does he have Freudian Excuses or Redeeming Qualities?

No Freudian Excuse or much of any detail is provided of O'Phelan's past. There is no evidence that he mistreated Fiona or Kerianne before his first appearance on the show, but given his later threat to them it can't be inferred that he deeply loved them either. He calmly accepts his death and defeat, but the sincerity is questionable, and the way he smiles about it could just as well be interpreted as trying to rob Chibs of any satisfaction in killing him.

Conclusion

Onscreen crimes eclipse or succeed the other bad guys in the show. There is no motive for his actions beyond power, cruelty, and saving his own hide, and no real redeeming qualities to balance his evil out. Seems like a keeper.

edited 8th Jul '13 9:51:43 AM by Morgenthaler

We already discussed the Yu Yu Hakusho examples. Rando was cut for Offscreen Villainy, Mr. Akashi and Mr. Iwamoto were cut for failing the heinous standard, Kazuya was cut for being a Split Personality that's actually treated like a split personality and not a separate individual like Yami Marik from Yugioh, and it looks like someone just added King Enma without consulting the thread so he needs to be discussed first because Manga! Enma and Anime! Emna are diffent, same with Anime! Sayako and Manga! Sayako.

Back to Stephen King: What to do with those that remain?

I'd like to finish cleaning up these Yu Yu Hakusho examples and then lock the page, it's been there for a year and it really needs to be sorted out.

There are actually SEVERAL Anime/Manga subpages that are unlocked and need to be cleaned a bit.

EDIT: I cut the above examples; what is this "Genkai Puppet Show" though?

edited 8th Jul '13 10:35:24 AM by ACW

Let me go over this...

Elder Toguro is the easiest keep of the series. The Genkai Puppet Show is nasty, but it's probably the least heinous thing he's done. Crueler instances are his defeating another team of fighters, leaving two alive and vowing to spare one. One man begs for his life and the other vows to kill him, so Toguro kills the one begging. he then informs the survivor that Younger Toguro prefers fighters like him, who get stronger for the purpose of taking the Toguros' heads...except his brother isn't there now and Elder Toguro hates keeping his promises. He then executes him on the spot. The worst thing he did was allowing a pychic to eat him in a weakened state and then slowly, slowly devouring him from the inside out, torturing him mentally the entire time.

Gonzo Tarukane is another easy keep. He keeps an innocent girl captive and subjects her to physical and mental torture because whenever she cries, her tears are rare jewels. he even seems to enjoy causing the pain. He has really nasty experiments conducted on animals, has no problem ordering people killed, but the torture to Yukina is enough to qualify him. Should be noted Elder Toguro actually got her to cry by murdering her only friends, a pair of birds.

Sakyo...no. In the anime,he's given some redeeming qualities (feelings for Shizuru Kuwabara). In the manga, he's just...there. He's a cipher to move the plot along with no character to him. He doesn't exactly show remorse. More a realization of what a twisted bastard he is, but his final scene indicates feelings to Shizuru are genuine.

Mukuro's stepfather is barely seen, but he makes use of this by having raped Mukuro from pretty much birth to the point where she scarred herself hideously with acid to escape his attentions. Mukuro,whenever she wanted to kill him, stopped because she remembered the one time he was kind to her as a real father should have been...except it's revealed he implanted these false memories into her to stay her hand when she became too powerful.

Ichigaki is a maybe. He's a nasty bastard. he gets a bunch of goodhearted martial artists to help him out in exchange for curing their ill master. Who he poisoned, of course. he turns the goodhearted warriors into brainwashed killing machines for his own sport and scientific curiosity. he takes a sick pleasure in watching Yusuke and Kuwabara choose between winning the match (and killing the innocent followers) or trying to save them (and end up slain).

King Enma is damn hard to qualify in the manga...he's barely seen, so it's hard to say if he's a brutal tyrant trying to hold onto his own power or not

edited 8th Jul '13 12:17:54 PM by Lightysnake

Someone added Rando back, he was actually the one of the ones I was going to contest being there. Along with the dickhead teachers(I really don't get how those to got there, they're slime, sure, but nowhere near this trope)

I agree about Sakyo, it's like he knows he's a evil bastard, but can't stop. He seems to sincerely have a crush on one of the girls, too.

edited 8th Jul '13 12:40:28 PM by shoboni

I'd actually say cut Tarukane, keep Sakyo. It's pretty clear through Tarukane's arc that he's Sakyo's Unwitting Pawn. As for Sakyo's feelings for Shizuru in the anime, that's not in the original story and as I understand it most fans of the series regard it as a huge Ass Pull by the anime staff based solely on Sakyo's prettiness.

The evil stepdad (who actually does have a name, or maybe a title, Chikou) would seem like a disservice to cut, but we hardly ever see him. His biggest cruelties are off-panel, though we do see him having SEVEN-YEAR-OLD Mukuro dressed up in sexy clothes for him. His sole present-day appearance is his death scene.

edited 8th Jul '13 12:42:06 PM by HamburgerTime

I don't know, maybe if we specify he's only one in the Manga he can stay.

I could see Enma cut because his is of the Offscreen Villainy variety, and to be frank, in YYH, the cutoff for being "particularly heinous" by the story pretty much requires some level of disturbing body horror, cold-blooded torture, or otherwise inflicting And I Must Scream or worse, and while it may have happened in the backstory, there just isn't the evidence that he's as utterly depraved in his evil as Elder Toguro or Mukora's Stepfather (who I would consider the most monstrous character in the series if only due to Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil - even being mostly an offscreen villain, I just can't see surgically modifying your (step-)daughter at birth to make her easier to rape as being anything less than the most disgusting thing in the whole series).

As for Sakyo, I'm not familiar enough with the anime adaptation to say for sure (I've seen a lot of the Dark Tournament arc, but I don't recall his interactions with Shizuru specifically), but I wouldn't consider him as monstrous as the two above. I could see him cut without too much trouble if that's what it comes to.

We can't say Mukuro's stepdad's misdeeds are offscreen though given she has a clear flashback of him pinning her on the bed as a child. That takes it WAY out of offscreen villainy.

As for tarukane...no. He is Sakyo's pawn in the sense that the Toguro's were sent to lure Team Urameshi in. The fact that Sakyo plays on Tarukane's greed in the betting does not overwrite Tarukane's cruelties were done by himself, for his own benefit without any influence from Sakyo.

Sakyo took advantage of greed and evil that was already there. It doesn't change what Tarukane is.

The problem again, though, is in the anime, Sakyo is worse than the manga counterpart, but with the redeeming quality. The big problem is in the manga is Sakyo isn't a character at all. He's just there. Like I said, he's a cipher.

edited 8th Jul '13 12:51:52 PM by Lightysnake

Ah, I forgot that. Yeah, leave the stepfather in then.

IIRC, though, wasn't the whole Tarukane arc essentially just an elaborate scam by Sakyo to get Tarukane to lose all his money to him?