Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I don't recall the final total, but I'm pretty sure more than seven or eight people down-voted him.

edited 29th Feb '16 10:34:35 AM by Tyk5919

Yes, but the ratio wasn't different when you remember the total votes made.

He's got to be doing something right to inspire the kind of undying loyalty his men have for him.

Gina Carano talked about how utterly, wordlessly devoted her character is to him in interviews. Angel Dust never questions, never second-guesses. She does everything she's told because she's 100% faithful to him.

We actually get to see it with his mooks, who are offered an opportunity to not fight the regenerating super-killer who's been slaughtering their organization and staunchly refuse. Not one man takes Deadpool up on his offer to let them walk away.

Not going around kicking puppies is a silly complaint, but Ajax definitely has some serious leadership skills to inspire men to die for him without question the way he does. Which, as I understand, does not disqualify him from CM status. I don't think Bad Boss is a criteria.

edited 29th Feb '16 10:58:56 AM by TobiasDrake

There's another just as plausible motivation though: fear.

Most of them don't know Deadpool well and get surprised by him. We also see from Bob a number of these guys are just hirelings.

Also Angel seems a special case and we never see Francis cares about her on a redeeming way

edited 29th Feb '16 11:07:47 AM by Lightysnake

I was linked to this thread, so apologies if I'm posting in the wrong place.

I wanted to propose adding Imshael to the Complete Monster subpage for Dragon Age. Imshael is a demon ... sorry, choice spirit that is a Bonus Boss in Dragon Age Inquisition.

Imshael is first introduced in Dragon Age: Asunder where he was summoned by a Dalish clan wishing to gain control of the eluvians. He was freed from his binding circle by the Orlesian chevalier Michel, believing that he was destroying the demon. Imshael proceeded to slaughter the Dalish elves in ways that are met with revulsion from Grand Duke Gaspard and the rest of his entourage upon finding their camp.

Imshael only spared one mage who agreed to be his new host, along with the children of the clan. However, he only let the children live so that he could send them to another Dalish clan with the intention of draining that other clan's resources. As Imshael puts it, winter is on the way, and the hungry mouths of youngsters force others into making such interesting choices.

Imshael next appears in Dragon Age Inquisition in Corypheus' employ, assisting the Red Templars at Suledin Keep. He can control the rate of their mutation due to red lyrium and is able cure any Red Templar in exchange for an unspoken bargain, which is apparently so terrible that one templar chose to die rather than agree. When the Inquisitor confronts him, Imshael offers a bribe; if accepted, he then murders Michel, who has been hunting him.

He is also referenced in World of Thedas Volume 2, where he appears to be imprisoning and torturing people in order to force them into making a Sadistic Choice.

Imshael is more intelligent and free-willed than other spirits and demons, a fact that the mage Lienne comments on in Asunder. But Imshael has no apparent reason for doing terrible things; he simply seems to enjoy villainry for its own ends. In effect, he functions like Jigsaw of the Saw franchise, but without the excuse that he's teaching people to appreciate their lives.

edited 29th Feb '16 11:48:50 AM by FaceofEvil

Intelligence is not the same as agency. Many Made of Evil beings are intelligent. Is Imshael capable of making moral decisions, or is he stuck as evil? I'm also unsure on the heinous standard for Dragon Age, but I've heard it's very high.

Really Ajax? He doesn't do enough on screen and not only that, the movie doesn't even take him seriously. Also why doesn't tirek from friendship is magic count?

Did you read the past discussion?

Yes, but he still doesn't seem heinous enough, at least in my eyes, but I'm sure he'll be added anyway, so eh go ahead.

The things you brought up with Ajax were already discussed before and deemed not sufficient to disqualify him.

Also, Tirek was discussed before. You can search up the previous conversations if you want to find out why he doesn't count.

Alright, the underling thing doesn't hold a lot of water, but we don't see enough of the awful things Ajax does to judge him as one. And like I said, he's nowhere near as bad as Shaw.

Fitzgerald did try to kill Bridger, unless he knew the gun didn't have enough powder in it to fire in which case, he was just trying to scare him.

Still think Lane's so called Freudian Excuse doesn't hold any water though.

edited 29th Feb '16 12:41:15 PM by futuremoviewriter

Not sure why Shaw is getting brought up so much. Also, Fitzgerald is nowhere near as bad as Ajax, not to mention they're from completely unrelated films.

Ok then, but still I don't think I'll ever see Ajax as a cm, even if he's played seriously, well here's another thing, he's in deadpool, and it's no like deadpool is really much of a saint himself. But either way and I know it's irrelevant. But to ajax, I find it strange since lockdown from age of extinction and bibidi form dragonball z were disqualified for offscreen villainy.

edited 29th Feb '16 1:00:24 PM by Mediawatcher

Not sure why Shaw is getting brought up so much.

Shaw is being brought up because he's in the same continuity as Deadpool (or more accurately the other way around).

As for Ajax, I kind of want to say he qualifies, being a Grade A asshole, but I don't recall that he's shown to actually do that much. Given the current voting, though, my doesn't seem to mean all that much.

edited 29th Feb '16 1:11:21 PM by Nohbody

Deed-wise, I;m basing it off Wade's flashback: the torture in the facility and the forced slavery

Anyways, having rewatched I, Claudius...I reluctantly think we need to cut Caligula. While he's certainly evil and insane, his insanity takes on a form when he becomes increasingly detached from reality to the point where he's doing dances while dressed as a woman, making his horse a Consul and sending his army to collect seashells as a proof of his triumph against Neptune...I'm willing to overlook his murder of his cousin Gemellus (an underaged boy) simply because he was coughing too much, and Caligula kept hearing the cough when nobody else did, but he also has a scene where he breaks down over a 'galloping' in his head.

I'd also dismissed his love for his sister and lover Drusilla, since he denounces her as a whore when she dies, but when Claudius himself is dying, he quite pitifully calls her name several times before the Praetorians finish him off.

In the utter abundance of caution, I think he needs to be cut. I should mention he's evil before he goes insane when he poisons his own father and condemns his great-grandmother to hell in a violation of their bargain, (and actually far more clever and calculating) but when he commits his worst actions, the murders of civilians, the forced orgies, etc. he's incredibly demented and may not be able to be said to have genuine agency.

The only other guy who comes close, IMO, is Macro, Caligula's enforcer, but he just barely misses the cut. Most of his nastier deeds are at the behest of Caligula (he's the one who kills the underage Gemellus), but for the most part he's out-heinousned by people with redeeming features like Sejanus. However, he has probably the sickest crime in the series, as one of his men protests to kill an underage girl (a virgin) would bring bad luck on the city. Macro's response? "Make sure she's not a virgin when you kill her. Now get on with it!"

edited 29th Feb '16 1:15:52 PM by Lightysnake

Caligula as much as I hate to say it.

I've also seen the show and can back up what lighty says. He starts off as pretty damn evil prior to his insanity but there are so many people in the show who kill so many others in the pursuit of power (Livia, Sejanus, Tiberius), that by the time he does enough to outshine them all his sense of sanity has been discarded. Also, his murder of Drusilla was an accident. After he believes he metamorphasizes into a god in mortal form, he proclaims her a goddess, and when Claudius told him a legend of another God who ate his child so no God would be greater than he, he decided to do this literally when Drusilla announces she's pregnant. Before cutting out the fetus, he assures her she won't feel pain and honestly doesn't seem to expect her to die or even be hurt. Once it's done, he leaves the room seemingly in a state of shock. Also, the galloping noise he mentions as hearing in his head is playing during this scene as well as the scene after he immediately becomes emperor.

He also suffers from mood swings, preparing to hack two senators into pieces and only sparing them when Claudius impresses him by speaking in creative prose. He seems to have a conservation with a statue of Jove that only he can hear. And, as lighty mentioned, he does an absolutely hilarious drag show after a tense build up where he looks like he's going to execute Claudius and the two senators again. There's even a scene where he talks with Claudius and conveys a fear that he may be insane meaning he might be aware of how his actions are wrong. Anything resembling a grip on reality has long since gone for the guy immediately after taking the throne, and I really think he has impaired moral agency by this point.

edited 29th Feb '16 1:26:26 PM by OccasionalExister

Sometimes if feels like you guys (Lighty and OE) are working together . You almost always back each other up on villains.

I don't think being an utter asshole should be enough to count, anyway I never really saw Caligula as such, even with the way he was.

Caligula

Caligul murders a lot of people and forces people to prostitute themselves in orgies which is rape. He's not just an asshole.

There's one other Roman villain o think we need to cut as well: tullius from Spartacus. Only one murder

I couldn't find a quote button, so I just copy and pasted.

"Intelligence is not the same as agency. Many Made of Evil beings are intelligent. Is Imshael capable of making moral decisions, or is he stuck as evil? I'm also unsure on the heinous standard for Dragon Age, but I've heard it's very high."

Yes, he is capable of agency. As noted by the mage Lienne in Dragon Age: The Masked Empire, demons and spirits in the series are "simple," in that they tend to find an emotion or an ideal that they like and then shape themselves around it. Demons tend to recycle the same tactics in battle over and over: a rage demon will always burn its victims, a hunger demon will try to eat you, etc.

But Imshael is capable of killing in a multitude of ways, a point that horrifies that Lienne because it suggests he is far more intelligent than other demons. He boils, burns, flays, skewers and butchers the Dalish elves for daring to summon him.

The resulting massacre disgusts even Grand Duke Gaspard, a veteran of numerous battles used to seeing carnage and who made his dislike of elves well-known.

Throughout the course of Masked Empire and DAI, the only beings not to regard Imshael as extremely dangerous or evil are the Red Templars, who work for another Complete Monster on the Dragon Age sub-page.

He is also capable of showing mercy when it amuses him to do so. He allowed Michel, who he could have murdered easily, to pursue him for a time solely because he "made a choice," which Imshael respected.

I should note as well that Imshael is a member of the Forbidden Ones, a group of spirits who abandoned the ancient elves of Thedas during their time of greatest need. For this reason, they were banished from the physical world. The Forbidden Ones are all evil, but the others have not received as much characterization as Imshael.

edited 29th Feb '16 1:42:38 PM by FaceofEvil

See, Wade being no saint is kinda part of the reason I'm so gung ho about Ajax. Wade has killed a lot of people. And he kills a lot more people trying to get to Ajax. Yet Ajax is still so abhorrent that not once is Wade's quest, selfishly motivated as it is, really considered in the wrong (other than by Colossus, whom the audience isn't really supposed to agree with).

We see pretty clearly his slavery ring. We see their methods. We watch him target dying veterans, and relish in lying to them and break their spirit. His heinousness to me doesn't come from sheer numbers, but from how much he's a complete dick about the awful things he does, and how much he enjoys that. Not to mention all the pointless torture. At least the Department H torture had a purpose (the purpose being, you know, making slaves so even that isn't exactly a nice thing), ... but then he goes and tortures Wade and Vanessa explicitly because he's enjoying it.

I admit in terms of scale he doesn't have the most prolific track record, but given the scope of his operation that we see on-screen it's pretty successful and he's certainly well-funded. Even the complete destruction of his lab and Wade mowing down literally every person he can think of doesn't slow him down much, which implies an impressive scale. So yeah, still a plus 1 from me.

My main hang up there is heinousness for Inshael

edited 29th Feb '16 1:37:55 PM by Lightysnake

Imshael. Beings like him in Dragon Age have moral agency, so I see no issue with him counting.