Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

to Gilgamesh and Donshe.

43 and Unknown's got a point, not quite feeling Bathory.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:05:30 AM

Abstaining on Bathory; with that one, looks like it was about a fictionalized banquet where she would lure unsuspecting victims, and the whole blood bath is a legend that isn't verified. But even then, don't really think it's enough.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:15:21 AM

Duck posted the lyrics for everyone to read through:

Welcoming the virgins fair, to live a noble life In the castle known to all - the Count's infernal wife She invites the peasants with endless lavish foods But, when evening spreads it wings, she rapes them of their blood

Countess Bathory Countess Bathory

All day long the virgins sit and feast on endless meals The Countess laughs and sips her wine - her skin doth crack and peel But when nightime fills the air one must pay the price The Countess takes her midnight bath with blood that once gave life

Countess Bathory Countess Bathory

Living in her self styled Hell, the Countess dressed in black Life's so distant - death's so near - no blood to turn time back The castle walls are closing in, she's crippled now with age Welcomes death with open arms - the reaper turns the page

Countess Bathory Countess Bathory

I'd say that's pretty focused on crimes for a story.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 22nd 2021 at 5:15:58 PM

I am aware that Demon posted the lyrics. But, yeah, I agree that it is more overly-reliant on the deeds.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:18:13 AM

For the record I'm gonna vote "no" to Bathory.

There's one other Music candidate I kinda wanna discuss. Not necessarily to cut but I wanna take a deeper discussion into this:

• The Rolling Stones' Beggars Banquet's "Sympathy for the Devil": The Devil himself initiates the song by fondly reminiscing on the many crimes he had committed on mankind such as compelling Pontius Pilate into sentencing Jesus to death; orchestrating the October Revolution and the execution of the Romanov family; pitting warring monarchs against each other to his amusement; and relishing in the stench of the rotten bodies left behind in the aftermath. Throughout the song, while the Devil tries to convey himself as a "Man of Wealth and Taste", his thinly veiled threats to damn the souls of anyone who disrespects him exposes the unbridled monster he truly is.

The song's got Satan as the first-person narrator, gloating about everything he's supposedly responsible for in human history. My big issue is I have an issue treating the lyrics as strictly literal when the song's a bigger metaphor for human evil.

See, I wouldn't mind this as much if Satan were a character in a proper, developed, characterized narrative—a story. "Sympathy for the Devil" is not a story or narrative. It, by definition, fails the clause that 43110 just described: "the song must constitute more of a story than simply "Here are villainous acts." The greater issue I have with that is that Satan is constantly implying through the song that he's not corrupting humanity but that they are equally at fault.

At the absolute least, Satan is mocking all of humanity for being just as bad as him. At the worst, it's him sarcastically confessing to all of humanity's evil deeds. Taking this out of mere Alternate Character Interpretation for me are the lyrics "I shouted out / Who killed the Kennedys? / When after all / It was you and me!" and "Just as every cop is a criminal / And all the sinners saints!" where Satan's gleefully implying humanity's equal culpability in the matter—in regards to the former lyrics, Word of God on the matter is that "the devil is not the other one, but eventually each one of us." At the same time, I also won't lie that the Devil is being personified as a first-person narrator; I just wonder if we're being too literal in ascribing all the described deeds purely to him. The subtext in the song is screaming "Humans Are the Real Monsters" and Word of God removes that from pure Alternate Character Interpretation.

I really, really wouldn't be harping as much about this if it were a fully-developed story—even, say, a concept album—but as is, I'm actually genuinely concerned about applying such a character-based trope like this to a medium that's far less based on characterization and story and more about lyrical symbolism, particularly when we've gotten increasingly stringent that a song must have some sort of narrative substance to it to clear that line. I'm not sure "Sympathy for the Devil" clears that line.

What say we? Am I raising up a stink for nothing, or is this worth discussion?

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 22nd 2021 at 10:25:09 AM

I'm not gonna be tore up if she gets downvoted honestly. I did post the lyrics and 43 reposted them so let the votes fall as they may.

EDIT: Oh also cut Satan.

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:36:33 AM

Honestly, I'm fine with the banquets one getting cut because I was really unsure with that one. But, yeah, ambiguity might be a huge disqulifier here. It's ironic because I was actually going to reevaluate this one.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:31:05 AM

Do all music candidates need to fall under "must have a story" banner? Cuz I feel like we've got at least some candidates who don't—hell, the Devil posted above (who I'm fine cutting btw) is functioning on pretty much the exact same realm of "just listing off crimes and situations of evil", and we aren't really talking of cutting for that reason—so I'd like this cleared up, cuz I was under the impression that a Music CM was fine from a work so long as it was sufficiently fictionalized and made a clear indication of the evil being done, not necessarily that "there's gotta be a clear narrative", especially when a big chunk of music just... isn't really built around "here's the plot, here's the characters, here's one who stands out in being evil", so I wanna get that cleared up before Duck or anyone else—myself included—bring up other music candidates we've had in mind that can fall under the purview of "little narrative substance".

Edited by Ravok on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:47:20 AM

Yeah, I do remember that evidence of crimes had to be in the song instead of it being symbolic. If anything, if the song is squarely about the deeds being committed, then, yeah that'd make sense. But at the same time, music is a different medium from a book or film.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:52:07 AM

Personally I'm not sure about applying the narrative rules to music myself, do to the nature of the medium

Abstain on the devil, who I'll think on personally.

I mean, while we're here? I wanna clear up that "should Music have sufficient narrative for a candidate?" rule. I'm personally leaning that "they should" because songs, as repeatedly mentioned, are a hugely different beast from more story/character-based mediums and Complete Monster is a character-based trope. This discussion I wanna have over Satan is an exact reflection of the issues of that.

I also wanna make it very clear that I've got two musical versions of Jack the Ripper (from Malevolent Creation and The Misfits respectively, both of which comfortably fall under the umbrella of "a song about an evil villain doing evil things") I'm a word away from putting up on the chopping block for these exact reasons of "do Music candidates need sufficient story to count?" It's an issue I wanna discuss and I'll wait until we do, but as is I'm leaning on the idea of "they do" and I'm ready to discuss it.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 22nd 2021 at 11:18:49 AM

Wouldn't mind someone double checking on that ruling as I did say I was happy for someone to do so. Beyond that though, I do concur with cutting the Devil, he's good as a smooth MB either way.

Honestly, I don't think music should be treated in the same way we handle other medium.

But with songs like that one about some unnamed protagonist singing about wanting to kill children (which is also a darkly hilarious song) and nothing more than that, then you do have a point. Especially when there are no actual acts of evil being committed.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:56:23 AM

Devil

@Scraggle: Agreed, I'm fine either way on where the discussion lands but I would certainly like it to be one we make clear, because I'm quite certain there's several songs including the Ripper ones that could be chopped if we decide to go the route of "there's gotta be a heavy, story-like narrative."

On the one hand, as you say, CM is a character trope first and foremost, and that would imply needing an actual, proper narrative for the character to operate in.

On the other, music is absolutely a unique brand of medium in which—if we were looking to—allowing more wiggle room on what is and isn't a "narrative" to allow a character to count in it could be a way of approaching it.

Songs heavy on symbolism I'm absolutely agreeing shouldn't be taken at face value, too...but as for what constitutes a narrative, I'd like discussed. Technically speaking, the Bathory song presents a "narrative"—one in which Bathory is described as luring girls to dinner banquets only to slay and bleed them dry, ala a short horror story—but it's also not a particularly in-depth one, so I think we've gotta talk what we wanna constitute as "in-depth" enough for a narration to pass.

I can go either way, but let's clear this up.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 22nd 2021 at 9:58:25 AM

I'm going with the latter due to the uniqueness of the medium. But, yeah, the Bathory song does have a narrative albeit not an overly complex one, but it exists nonetheless.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 22nd 2021 at 10:01:11 AM

If the issue is how it's a Charachters based trope, then I think the rule there should be less narrative and more that the Charachter themselves is fleshed out enough and they and there deeds get firm, Non Vague descriptions of the deeds.

Ultimately where I am leaning on is that the crimes have to be explicit instead of implied/symbolic; characterization itself I don't have much issue on because of how the lyrics would describe how the candidate acts and what makes them tick.

I will admit I am probably not the best person to give my opinion on this but I do have some thoughts.

I am not totally sure if we should or can apply this idea that the song needs to be more than just describing evil acts. The issue is by their nature songs are like 3-5 minutes at most with longer being super rare so it is hard to get really anything else in besides that if a song is going to have a CM. I wonder if we are to be so restrictive like this would most of the Music villains not qualify? as a lot are kind of the basic idea. Maybe I am overthinking it but it is something I am wondering.

When it comes to Satan though I am good for a cut if it is really that symbolic.

I wouldn't say that. But yes, explicit acts instead of symbolic ones is one thing I can agree with.

It would be nice if someone would like to look up the last debate and see where we actually landed on the narrative thing. We're kinda guessing in the dark here and everyone's taking my word as gospel when I'm just going by recollection of something I think I recall from a good while back.

I am not sure if we should put so much stock into what happened in the previous debate. It is important but at the same time, opinions can always change.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 22nd 2021 at 10:47:15 AM

... we are not ignoring everything from a huge debate in which moderators got involved just to maybe rehash an old discussion. Don't sweep it under the rug Ordeaux.

If we go down this path we may as well abolish the NA list and allow people to re-propose characters as many times as they'd like regardless of whether or not there's new information. There's an extremely pragmatic reason we reference.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 22nd 2021 at 6:43:40 PM

I remember that removing the historical ones was the primary one. Otherwise, no entries where you lift their real-life crimes into the song due to that violating no real world entries, etc.

But, ultimately, with music being a unique medium, I don't think it can be evaluated in the same way as a book or film. With that being said, yes, songs that are more reliant on symbolism and vagueness should be discouraged.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 22nd 2021 at 10:45:47 AM

That this thread is perennial does not mean prior arguments automatically lose their merit, Ordeaux. The reason we put "stock" into the consensus of prior debates is that we use that consensus to shape how we look at the trope going forward. Right now, we're going forward. I think that was an extremely ill-considered comment, going forth.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 22nd 2021 at 11:47:35 AM