During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I'm going to wait for Ravok on this one... he covered the same character for MB and I'd like to hear him on it, as I'm surprised he didn't cover him here at the same time and worry something's being left out.
Professor Gigachad
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
This isn't for the console version which Ravok covered its for the Game Boy Color one as well as its sequel.
Goku Black
Ravok's mb ep was for the console version where Ock is a WIE.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 13th 2021 at 2:09:53 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Oh apologies, I see I missed that part. Yeah, with no concern of another post contradicting the info here that seems there's enough to him.
Caesar
'Yes' to Sam, Zero, and...for now the Tsushima baddies.
This is indeed a different Ock than the one I proposed, but I have an entirely different set of issues altogether: this is a Gameboy game whose cutscenes equal like 15 minutes. Taking a look at a walkthrough, I'm getting the same issues as most of the Justice League Heroes: The Flash baddies. The format of the game and setting makes a character having enough weight for their actions much harder, and I see very little proof that the symbiote experiments were "horrific". I'm a 'No' for now, Ock's villainy is pretty generic anyway, just trying to Take Over the World with mind control that's not given much weight isn't screaming "pure evil, above average monster" to me, personally.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Professor Gigachad
Mostly due to how condensed this version is all of his redeeming qualities are gone.
Well we do have the Game Boy version of The Joker, yeah it isn't played as bad as it could be but what he intends to do is very clear. When I say horrific I mean the sheer idea of what he is doing.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 13th 2021 at 2:17:33 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Hmm... we might have the Joker but we also declined the side scroller Red Skull whose personality amounted to "Hahaha I'm evil", if this is too light that's going to be an issue.
Edit: I'm going to take a look at the scenes myself, I too don't want us to be going "They used the word experiments, therefore we're basically talking Zola."
Edited by 43110 on Sep 13th 2021 at 5:21:07 AM
Professor Gigachad
To be fair the experiments weren't the only reason I suggested him it was also for the slave army stuff. I could understand the concerns but I personally don't think this is a problem.
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Doc.
What is the Work?
Tiger Fangs is a 1943 adventure film starring animal handler Frank Buck as a fictional version of himself.Frank and his allies work to stop the evil Nazi scientist Dr. Lang and his accomplice Henry Gratz from doping tigers in Malaya, thereby causing them to attack humans and affect the allied war effort.
Honestly, Lang himself is too iffy for me to discuss until I get a second opinion. Gratz, on the other hand…
Who is Henry Gratz and what has he done?
As two sketchy men watch, an associate named Peter Jeremy tells Frank that tigers have been attacking women and children, and targeting men by the score near rubber plantations. The attacks are mistaken by the natives as were-tiger attacks.
After a rubber plantation worker is injured in an other tiger attack, Frank arrives at the plantation, where the worker has died despite the apparent best efforts of Dr. Lang, the plantation physician. The body count is estimated at 26-27 according to the plantation owner's daughter, Linda McCardle.
Frank, Jeremy, and a few others go on an expedition, where they encounter Henry Gratz and his assistant abusing a tiger, and Frank rebukes them.
Frank and company trap a different tiger, and discover a poison dart in its skin. They have Linda analyze the dart in order to find out what exactly the poison is. Later, Linda finds the Dart missing.
After his boss, Lang, rebukes him for his carelessness, Gratz decides to preserve his own worthless hide by hiding a leopard in Linda's room, only for the cat to fail to kill her.
After releasing another tiger, injuring another worker, Gratz tries to shoot at the hunting party before running away, and being crushed under the debris of a hut by elephants.
Turns out the poison had made the cats violent.
Mitigating Factors?
Gratz cares only about his own personal gain and saving his own skin. He feigns pleasantries with his men, but they are expendable. He also has a sadistic streak.
Heinousness?
Lang may be the mastermind, but Gratz does all of the heavy lifting. He abuses the tigers and sets them on the workers, and he tries to kill anyone who tries to interfere. We see at least 2 tiger attacks, and there are scores more.
Verdict?
Throw him to the tigers.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 13th 2021 at 5:33:29 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
I'm saying no to Ock. Not strictly on the basis of characterization or anything like that (though that's a factor) but I just plain don't think he's bad enough. "Turns some innocent people into monsters" is basically old hat for the Mad Scientist-types we get in this thread. If that's literally the only half-noteworthy thing he does and it's already diluted by the nature of the GBC's limitations, he's not close to standing out as truly heinous.
Edited by Scraggle on Sep 13th 2021 at 3:37:40 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Egale, Grtaz, and Riku. Abstain on GBB Ock.
Edited by YobabyColin on Sep 13th 2021 at 5:32:57 AM
Sure to Henry but having gone through the cutscenes myself Ock's a definite no, severely lacking in weight.
Yes to Gratz and switching to no to Dock Ock.
Professor Gigachad
I still don't really agree with that, honestly if it were up to me I would get rid of the "crimes need weight" rule since I think its to subjective but that isn't up to me. I will accept if he is rejected though. Damn I have not bein having good luck with candidates.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I'm taking umbrage with the counterpoints too:
A. That "character A qualifies in one medium, ergo so does my character!" is not a proper argument for Doc Ock's qualification. Doc Ock needs to count based on the individual standard of his own game, not by the standards of Batman for the Game Boy.
B. "The sheer idea of what he's doing" will not always necessarily be translated well by the medium. This argument implies Fridge Horror, which likewise does not constitute onscreen villainy. GBC!Joker made it on by a technicality because of the "kill Gotham" plan (which even I think is worth some more scrutiny given it's what the Joker does every Tuesday in almost every adaptation he's in, but I digress). Doc Ock here doesn't even seem to have that.
The Draftsman of Doom
Come to think of it, no to Doc.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Not a fan either and I do really wish we could veer away from "I hate rules X, Y and Z and want them gone."
Yeah, Ordeaux, this isn't a problem of the rules themselves, this is a problem of your comprehension of them. If we allowed every two-dimensional villain who does two-dimensional villain things regardless of whether their crimes are treated with sufficient weight, we'd be letting up characters like the 80s!Cobra Commander. Not happening now, not happening ever.
Professor Gigachad
That is something I would be okay with.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Yeah, switching to a no to Doc.
Well it's an interpretation rather at odds with what the rest of us are talking about.
Professor Gigachad
I do understand that isn't what the rules are well this trope is YMMV for a reason.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
It counts what we’re shown, not what we’re told. If it didn’t, we’d be letting in almost every villain ever, with no regard to how Complete they are in their Monstrosity.
And . . . what? That is what the rules are, and have been for 11 years. NVM, misunderstood
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Sep 13th 2021 at 5:54:14 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
I have had enough of Ordeaux's contrarianism. Please excuse me a few minutes.
My effortpost, in case anyone missed it.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 13th 2021 at 6:02:59 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Yes to Alfred Molina in a Game Boy.