During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Messenger from another dimension.
Is today Bad Batch discussion? Haven't seen the show but discussion is today, right?
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Guess nobody picked up discussion for American Vampire: 1976 (and really... you're not missing much), so I will claim it if nobody else has any objections. No? Okay then, here goes.
What's the work?
American Vampire: 1976 is the not-so-grand finale of the long-running comic series American Vampire. The candidate I will be reexamining today is Huron, the Gray Trader.
Who is Huron? What are his new crimes?
Huron, the Gray Trader/Great Traitor, founder of the Vassals of the Morning Star was the greatest hero to humankind, who fought the Beast and beat it into submission, but suckled from its milk and became what amounts to the Antichrist, an emissary to the Beast dedicated to spreading its most abominable bloodline known as the Tongue. In addition to the horrible things he's already done, he now has the young American Vampire Gus captive and has contaminated the water with the Beast's milk, spreading the hive-minded Tongue — now hiding underground for the most part — across the globe, with the intention of unleashing them upon the world on the 4th of July, just as America is on the cusp of a nuclear war.
Later on, the resurrected Jim Book, who was brought back with the blood of one of the oldest vampires, conspires with the Gray Trader, destroying one of the VMA's ships with several of the Vassals on it and taking Mimiteh hostage to become the Beast's new vessel. Meeting with Huron, the Gray Trader expresses his next plans: to shut off power to the Hoover Dam via his minions and rise to the surface. The Beast bites down on her, only for her to reveal that she'd been taking some sort of poison, so now it needs a new host body, which Huron intimidates Jim Book into becoming. With the new host secured, the Tongue take to the streets and start destroying everything in their path... until the Vassals and the Ancients and a few Carpathian Vampires under Travis' control come to save the day, including Skinner Sweet, who has been bestowed with the Blood of Light, becoming strong enough to take on the Beast. The Beast goes down like a little bitch when a plane flies into it, and Sweet finishes it off by forcing it to drink the Blood of Light, causing every single Tongue — including the Gray Trader — to evaporate.
Mitigating qualities?
Absolutely none. One of the Council of Firsts dismembered and impaled on a spike tries to tell him that there's still good in him. His response? "Ha! No there's not."
Heinous standard?
Well, Dracula is initially shaped up to be a major contender (again), with his corruption of another person into a serial killer, but then he's unceremoniously killed off by the real first American Vampire, Mimiteh, who suddenly decided to come out of hiding after a few centuries. The Beast itself, while it has laid waste to the world several times over, is for all intents and purposes, Made of Evil. Though most of the homo abominus species are capable of agency (with a few exceptions), the Beast doesn't seem to be much more than a force that can do nothing but spread evil. Even then, when it finally shows up by possessing Jim Book, it really doesn't do much aside from stomp around Las Vegas and kill a few of the monsters siding with the Vassals. Not terribly impressive for a being that's stated to be literally Satan. And Skinner Sweet is a terrible fucking excuse for a hero; in early issues he was a notorious outlaw who participated in several train robberies and murders, stood by during several rapes (and this is all before he became a vampire), single-handedly caused the downfall of one incarnation of the VMS, oh, and he was also a pimp at one point, but he's saved because Pearl reminds him of an old lover and he cares about her in his own assholish way.
Verdict?
He still keeps. Quite possibly a runner up for the worst, most rushed ending ever.
Edited by Stellarvore on Aug 27th 2021 at 8:05:13 AM
CG for short
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Huron.
Keeping Gray Trader
Goku Black
Gray Trader/Huron.
Huron keeps. Future we get you think he counts but you have to respect we’ve got a fair amount of reason to question his inclusion. You don’t have a great history of attempting to draw comparisons and the Loveless comparison frankly seems like a false equivalence.
In hindsight, I was skeptical of Antwan, and really just voted yes because everyone at the time was voting yes on him. I'm still holding off from an official vote in case a convincing argument was made, but I'm thinking of saying ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
@43 I did admit it might not have been the best comparison I could make. I was also trying to just answer the concerns and see if I could clear things up too. I didn't intend to come off as unreasonable.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 27th 2021 at 6:07:57 AM
Gotta love Jaws!
to Gruner and Huron.
I'll switch to an abstain on Antwan. Sounds like something I'd wanna see for myself.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
Yeah it looks like this is the day for The Bad Batch. I haven't watched much of it myself, though I can confirm Wilhuff Tarkin shows up, so if nothing else he has a new entry/addition to existing entries ahead of him I suspect.
Wild Child
Gray Trader.
I might actually have an image
◊ for the Trader. Any thoughts?
RIP Toriyama
Trader sounds like he keeps, I think Lighty was intending to cover it but still.
Yes, Bad Batch time: no one counts, the main villain of the season, Admiral Rampart, is bad—spreading Empire's reign, taking part in mass oppression and even murder plots, firebombing Kamino and killing likely millions—but it's all pretty much standard Imperial fare done with little sadism or unique flourishes from Rampart, and things like Kamino were just following orders from Tarkin, anyway. He's got potential, but as of now, not quite there.
On that note, Tarkin can probably have a small addition of ordering Kamino be annihilated slid into his entry. It's prominent enough and can be said in like 4 words.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Wasn't accusing you of as much, just noting a fact I know to be true, you didn't do anything wrong.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 27th 2021 at 6:48:02 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Didn't see him anywhere in the discussion dates.
Keep Huron.
Apologies, but I can't find the image anywhere on the link provided.
Ues to the Baron and the Trader.
See, that's why all my proposals are for characters that debuts between 5 to 50 years ago; a character from a newly-released piece of work is bound to have loads and loads of arguements and debates spawning in-between from the concensus of oh-so-many people who had recently seen the show in question. 
How should we categorize Complete Monster characters that were nice prior to exposure to something that turned them evil? (I won't count ultra-powerful devices like The One Ring or Death Note since it's not supernaturally forcing anyone to become that way and they can stop using it, it just grants them unlimited power that inevitably corrupt them.) I feel that causes agency issues but we might mitigate it if we treat the pre and post turning evil characters as separate characters.
I was thinking of this because Michio Yuki from MW is listed as Complete Monster, which felt quite right considering he's a child-murderer, serial killer, rapist, zoophile, and attempted to destroy the entire world by dumping the MW gas onto it, but unlike Johan from Monster, he didn't really choose to continually be evil, his mind is completely warped as a result of exposure to the MW gas. It's not like he became possessed by a different entity either like The Tall Man from Phantasm, he just became literally incapable of relating to other human beings because of brain damage from a chemical compound.
Edited by Orangutans on Aug 27th 2021 at 6:55:00 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Michio is odd in that he has been brought up before on those exact concerns, but nothing ever came of it. A Complete Monster MUST have the ability to choose their path, and must have chosen that path on their own volition. So since I have never read the manga, I cannot say, but he sounds like a cut from what I am hearing.
Showtime!
Yeah, why was he kept up last time? That seems pretty cut-worthy to me
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Jeff, Gruner and Huron
Abstain on Antwan
Cut Yuki
Lighty claimed last time the work still portrayed Michio Yuki as capable of telling the difference between good and evil. I'll wait for him to comment.
He's VERY heinous. I think Lightysnake made a point about him being able to choose like the Joker, but it doesn't seem like the Joker was literally brain damaged by being put in sludge but just had a mental break and could choose to stop being evil but refuses to do so because being a Monster Clown is easier for him. He doesn't really strike me as someone who could change because he's mentally incapable of ever understanding how to (One could say that about Johan, but Johan was traumatized but not literally brain-damaged), but he does get the "You don't have to be this way" speech that heroes give Complete Monsters before they go "no" and kill their puppies.
That's a point that could count towards things in that fashion, he's sort of a Card-Carrying Villain and is more elaborate and premeditated in his schemes than just randomly doing things. I feel like he's just generally kind of a tricky example. (Remember how Light Yagami was proposed in 2012 and not added until 3 years later? That level of tricky.)
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Baron Adelbert Grune
Watch me destroying my country