During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don’t think there was an agreement on that
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dover
Sorry, I worded it poorly. Just was bumping Onyx discussion.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Red Eye and Dover.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Anyways I'll put everything here as a proper cut request for Onyx:
Here's her entry:
- "Next of Kin": Onyx Adams is a far cry from her comics counterpart. Onyx was a former League of Assassins member from the 1700s who has somehow lived to the 2010s and became a CIA black ops operative before leading her unit in a mass desertion and the theft of $100 million. When some of her unit defected back to the CIA, Onyx decided to eliminate them in faked terrorist nerve gas attacks, twice killing a defector and dozens of innocents. Chasing the third and final defector to Star City, Onyx butchers her way through Kord Industries workers and security to steal more gas and sets a building on fire to mask her escape. Attempting to kill her target by sealing him inside a hotel with dozens of guests and gassing them all, Onyx releases the gas to distract Team Arrow with her men still inside while she chases the defector down.
So Onyx just doesn't strike me as standing out from any other Villain of the Week with access to bombs. Hell I'd say several of them acting on their lonesome may have higher bodycounts, while she has a whole crew. She also doesn't come off as being any more nastier than members of her crew, as they were all fully onboard with her actions.
She targets her defectors due to risk of exposing her, and once that's done she'll be on her merry way. She does endanger innocents, but she purely sees them as collateral. But here's my biggest issue with her, I do not get a sense of "No holding back" with her, she has a goal of trying to kill her defectors and once she's accomplished that then she's done. This is in stark contrast to every other Arrow CM who will never stop and will keep on sadistically killing or torturing so long as they are alive.
In addition, her entry isn't really accurate about several things. It says she set fire to building to cover her escape. What actually happened was she ran a truck carrying gas into the side of building where the truck then exploded, with said building being empty at the time. It also says she gassed a building while her crew was inside, but I'll point out she was inside with them while she activated the gas and then got out of the building with ease, which really sounds like she didn't intend for her men to die.
She feels like a very standard Villain of the Week. It's a cut for me.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jan 30th 2023 at 5:14:29 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Whether she counts or not, "She does endanger innocents, but she purely sees them as collateral"...that's not mitigating IMO. Even if she doesn't specifically target them, the fact she's fine with them dying...
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Oh it's not mitigating, just not over the top bad.
Boomerang outheinouses her with similar resources and I don't think anyone will say he's a CM.
Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 17th 2021 at 9:13:18 AM
Not sure on Onyx.
Speaking of cuts any more on Paul Russel?
Goku Black
Sure cut Russel and Onyx
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Russel can go.
Abstain on Onyx, but I am leaning keep due to body count, though that can change.
Caesar
I'll say Cut to Russell and Onyx, but I do find myself agreeing with STAR on Dover. Dover is a hateable prick, but the heinous standard of Arrowverse is jacked way, way too high for me to say he passes personally. There are like....a lot of baddies who threaten hundreds or more, and while Dover is lower on resources, it reaches a frankly ridiculous point of heinousness where you need to do a lot for me to say you count, even as a lower-resources baddie. We're legitimately currently cutting a one shot villain who threatens hundreds of lives while having not that many more resources than Dover—she's still just a minor baddie who's not some Damien Dahrk level threat, yet we're cutting her because she "just" threatens hundreds.
Dover having a few dozen bodies on him is bad, but he's a recurring threat who isn't at all notable in bodycount itself, leaving only the resources argument which, unfortunately, with people like Anarky and other one-shots including other series like The Flash and such, I don't see him passing. I'm a No, unfortunately for as hateable as he is.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 17th 2021 at 10:59:31 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Goku Black
Yeah I think ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Dover
Like I think this is a case where you need to be exceptional and super over the top.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not sure I'd say it was hundreds. The two nerve gas instances gave her maybe a dozen each. Then the hotel had everyone gathered in the lobby at one point, still think that was less than 100.
I mean while he is 'reoccurring', he only had one episode where he could actually properly do anything. The rest he was behind bars, where the fact he killed anyone at all and got away with it was a feat in itself.
Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 17th 2021 at 10:06:16 AM
Onyx, seems shes outheinousnessed by those at her own tier and is a one off villain
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So with Vertigo I and Dollmaker I'm guessing it's quality over quantity with them?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Moron
Absolutely - Dollmaker’s method of killing is the single most horrific killing method in the entire franchise (I’ll fight and die on that hill) while Count I manages to spread his drug across the entire city with no resources and his drug’s effects are literally suicide-inducing
Hm, what about Block crushing people into a tiny cube?
Goku Black
Who?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Meta from Flash Season 5 who puts a cubical force field around victims and compresses it until they are literally a tiny block of human flesh.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And Werner Zytle has both: Besides taking over Vertigo, he tries to kill 20,000 people.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Actually, wasn't there concerns about heinousness when Onyx was first discussed?
flipto Dover
Cut Onyx.
Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
You know what sure cut Onyx and to Dover.
Also another round of cuts or keeps for Paul Russel
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 17th 2021 at 2:09:23 PM
Stanley. Cut Russel and Onyx.
Edited by CloisterTheStupid on Aug 17th 2021 at 7:16:16 PM
Hm, if Stanley doesn't make it then there's one more guy of that tier I might try who is even more heinous.
