During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ultron.
Yes to Ultra-tron.
Removed an unapproved CM entry from Bloodline (2006), given how it's written I'm sure it's not voted by the thread... that being said, the wikipedia summary sounds hardcore, anyone want to check it out?
- Complete Monster:
- Count Tepes- he’s the wicked Vampire Monarch who eats babies and plans to restore House Dracul to its former might...by any means necessary.
- John- he spends Reckoning arranging for Mary to be gaslit and mentally tormented, including having her father killed.
The Emperor of Evil!
Yes to (another) All Father Ultron
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Ultron.
Rawr.
to yet another Ultron
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ultra Ultron
Woagh
Current mood: sick of your shit
to All-Father Ultron.
A total has-been.
Ultron again.
Wild Child
Ultron.
to Ultron.
Echoing Lighty’s statement Selemene comes closest to counting and we’ll wait until the next season to see her fate before we ep her
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Sailor Sam, Prince Shing, Agatha (one of the most bizarre cases of Adaptational Villainy I’ve ever seen), the Anti-Monitor, and Allfather Ultron.
to Sauron's quote, Shing, Holmes and Ultron.
Since Lighty did an MB post for Eren since Attack on Titan, I'm curious to another potential CM keeper. How do you feel about Floch Forster, Eren's Psycho Supporter? His character page lists him as a Well-Intentioned Extremist for Paradis, but he also tortures those very people if they don't agree with Eren. He's seems to be as bad or worse than Gross and around the same level of resources. What is your opinion? Is he worth a discussion?
Yeah to Shing, Holmes, and another Ultron.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I genuinely cannot see Floch as this. His care for his comrades and survivor's guilt at them dying when the Survey Corps were wiped out is a huge part of his character
Torturing people doesn't sound like a WIE... I'm pretty sure that's a case of the WIE trope being misused again, due to some tropers trying to shoehorn redeeming qualities in a baddie they like
EDIT: Not familiar with the source material, don't judge me
Edited by RobertTYL on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:21:43 AM
Doesn't he completely turn on them all when they begin questioning Eren? He flats out tries to kill them later, and obviously doesn't care about other new recruits since he forces them to commit war crimes like brutally beating Shadis. What you stated was a part of his character in the beginning, but he has fallen far since then, and many of his actions seem more motivated by a racism against people not from Paradis than for a genuine love of Paradis.
The tropes on his character page certainly don't seem to do him any favors. If you see him as an absolute no, then I won't push the issue.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Apr 18th 2021 at 10:30:30 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
You can easily be a WIE and torture someone, that's not the issue. Floch is more a twisted Knight Templar anyways.
The issue is Floch is radicalized by the death of his comrades, something he is genuinely aggrieved over, and instills in him that Paradis requires a devil to lead them to survive. His care for his dead comrades in the Corps is never really overwritten.
Bad guy, not a CM
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 18th 2021 at 10:32:31 AM
Ehhh...everything you're saying here just feels wrong to me. The morality in the last arc got way to twisted for my liking and I can already see we won't agree on a lot of the characters and motivations. I chose to stay out of the Eren conversation over on MB since I don't won't to get too argumentative over a single work. If you don't think Floch counts, then I'll still defer to you on that.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Hey, go for it, I've been wrong before.
Alright guys, I got a bit confused because there's like, so many different incarnations of the Cthulu character, but...
Was this approved? I tried checking the history and it was added by some other troper instead of one of us
'Yes' to Holmes, and a late 'Yes' to Sam as well, thought about him awhile back but wasn't sure he was played as properly evil enough...however I think the argument is there, so he can keep. And super late 'Yes' votes to Scribble!Brainiac and Anti-Monitor![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
Alright, who's up for discussion on yet another version of everyone's favorite robotic psychopath? I know I am! From an alternate future as depicted in the Marvel Comics' arc "Ultron Forever"...
Who is All-Father Ultron? What has he done?
An Ultron from the year 2420 who proclaimed himself the "Ultimate Ultron", this Ultron murdered all of the Earth's heroes and began his horrifying conquest of the planet in a unique way: by capturing every human one at a time and utterly destroying their minds, turning them into mindless "bio-slaves" that Ultron gleefully forces to slave away unendingly while maintaining their own control centers, enjoying the idea of his "puppets" literally ensuring they stay subjugated. By the time of the story, the population not under Ultron's control or dead is in the low millions.
Ultron simultaneously transforms a group of people into his own "Avengers", modelling them after the Earth's heroes but with twisted variations, forcing them all for sheer sadism's sake to have constant awareness of the crimes they're committing and lack of free will, but forced to just go along with Ultron's command.
Soon enough forcibly transforming the trickster god Loki into a nightmarish nanovirus bent to his will, Ultron uses him to infect Thor and use him to conquer Asgard, where Ultron banishes the entire populace into a mirror dimension to be trapped forever before he overthrows Odin himself and becomes the All-Father, a literal god over the Nine Realms of the world who begins extending his reach to other planets in the universe, slowly converting all life to the "Ultron Singularity."
When Avengers from across time and other multiverses are assembled by a rogue Doombot to fight the Ultron Singularity, All-Father Ultron's slaves try to turn all of the Avengers into more mindless drones, planning to have them invade other time periods and dimensions until all is Ultron.
Eventually confronted by three Thors from different time and space, All-Father Ultron tries to destroy them all while revealing that the power of All-Father has left him more than uh a bit off his rocker. Luckily, before Ultron can wipe them all out, the Thors manage to overwhelm and destroy him, with the Thors remarking that as he died they couldn't tell if the mad god was "crying or laughing."
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Not really for most of the story, he's got the same past as main Ultron and is just a narcissistic robot with a god complex that he uses to become a god. The only real hesitation I have is that Ultron's Motive Rant when confronted by the Thors reveals that he's gone...more than a bit insane.
It's uhhh very creepy and Ultron obviously couldn't handle the power he took on, but I also don't think it's properly disqualifying or anything—he's still a total sadist and monster who's doing everything evil, he just has gone off the deep end in a bout of self pitying existential angst by the time the heroes confront him lmao
Heinousness?
Uniquely for Ultron, he's not seeking the outright extermination of all life, no...just to destroy the minds of every living thing and turn them into extensions of his will that he cruelly leaves enough sentience to know their suffering while making them keep their own "puppet strings" intact by having them upkeep their own technological implants. He turns several people into Avengers-ripoffs he uses as enforcers while leaving then aware of their altered minds and broken wills, he turns Loki into a horrible, suffering nanomachine while banishing all of Asgard to a mirror dimension, and is working to expand his reach to the entire multiverse.
Dr. Doom(bot) does have his own villainy and ultimately tries to take over the vacuum Ultron left, but Ultron was the catalyst and the main threat for most of the story and Doom(bot) pulls a Heel–Face Turn before he does anything too terribly horrid anyway
Final Verdict?
I'd say Keeper
Edited by Ravok on Apr 18th 2021 at 7:01:51 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.