Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Nah. Too incomprehensible, for one thing - we have no more real idea why the Iln did what they did at the end of the book then at its beginning.

Kirk and Howell. I guess on Schillinger (THIS GUY◊ as a Neo-Nazi???).

I have one concern and two questions:

Question 1 we have decided that Heel–Face Brainwashing does not disqualify a character since it was not a redemption done on their part, but what if they got amnesia and went on to live their life in peace afterward.

Question 2 a character can have no positive moments at all right? So does that mean that even something as simple as paying for something and letting a person keep the chnge or giving someone a candy bar can disqualify them?

Concern the film page is almost full, not sure if there is enough room for Paul from Anaconda.

• If they don't become evil again (like the Hack Slash Big Bad), I don't think they'd count.
• That might be pushing it a bit (though we DID disqualify Hopper for keeping a promise, so who knows?).
• Isn't the limit 500k characters? There's plenty of room, and if need be, several works have three entries that we can move to their own subpage or something.

edited 23rd May '14 6:33:37 AM by ACW

@25592: Excellent work on that film sandbox, TRA.

@25593: I'm honestly not sure which way to vote for Marissa. On the one hand, even if her stated Well-Intentioned Extremist motives are bullshit since she's just covering up her own crimes, Ambar still raised a fairly good point about her worst deeds being done offscreen, and also that she might have spared Sophie's family when she had no reason to. Overall it looks like she just kills three people onscreen (not counting what her Psycho for Hire does) and tries to kill the heroes. I'm unsure whether that's enough to qualify her on it's own.

@25598: Good Abaddon write-up. At this point, I'm leaning cut on Majora.

@25599: I vote yes on Detillo.

@25608: I'll vote yes on Kirk and Howell. They both sound uniquely heinous, and Kirk, despite being a slimy, relatively powerless figure, still murders a baby onscreen (before prison), succeeds in burying a man alive, and gets at least two other people killed in the church fire. Impressive stuff for a relative nobody who's locked up in prison and shouldn't really be able to do much on his own.

@25609: From what others say, I'll vote no on Iln.

edited 23rd May '14 6:59:30 AM by OccasionalExister

I still say for Majora. I'd also say that the quote I mentioned earlier does tell you all you need to know about its moral agency. It genuinely wants to destroy the world by possessing the Moon.

edited 23rd May '14 7:43:28 AM by AustinDR

Majora, Detillo, Kirk and Howell.

Hey everybody. Long time, no see.

Raising a kid is time-consuming, and I'm now dealing with proto-walking and the screams that can only come when multiple teeth erupt in a child who can't understand why it'll get better, she just has to work through it.

That said, Septimus Heap asked me to come in and comment about Majora for old times' sake, and I have fond memories of discussions with him and many others, so I can take the time to be social and put forth an argument. That said, unless my schedule starts to free up, this probably is a one-off for the time being.

Okay, first, as for the discussion of Majora back when I was active, it's not so much that it petered out as there weren't really any arguments against his inclusion before. Now there are.

From what I gather from a quick review, the argument is solely regarding Majora's moral agency in regards to its actions - can Majora choose to not do evil?

This might seem like a question of whether or not evil can understand good, but it is not. The instructive trope for comparison is Sociopathic Hero - they might not understand good, but they do it anyway. There is a choice to do evil, and that choice is much easier to make if one is a sociopath, but they can still choose to not be evil even if they do not understand the cause that they're aiding.

This is borne out by the fact that several of the classic, no-question Complete Monster stalwarts are in fact listed on the page for Evil Cannot Comprehend Good - The Joker, Kefka, Naraku, Amon Goeth, and a few others. Therefore, the question is not whether our evil in question can or cannot comprehend good, but rather whether or not our evil in question could perform good regardless of their understanding of it.

The FAQ covers this in the third question. It specifically cites Made of Evil as a disqualifier because the very nature of being made of evil literally prevents them from undertaking a good deed. Therefore, the appropriate question when discussing Majora, as it is with any godlike being that represents evil (which is discussed in various points in Majora's Mask) is whether or not Majora is Made Of Evil or merely performs in its stead. Being a God of Evil is not sufficient; multiple stories and mythologies have gods of evil that chose their position, while there are just as many that literally are just embodiments of the position - for every Lolth, there is a Demiurge.

The problem is that there is nothing definitive either direction to say whether or not Majora is definitively Made of Evil. One must therefore make an assumption based on one's own biases and interpretations of the lines in the game. I generally fall into the camp that a creature must specifically be shown or at least discussed to be Made Of Evil in order to qualify for Made Of Evil and therefore be ineligible for Complete Monster. Therefore, absent any information to counter this point, I argue that Majora is capable of moral agency, and therefore qualifies for the trope.

The only other argument against Majora would be that its worldview literally precludes understanding that it could even hurt others. However, given the sadism shown by Majora throughout the game (as it must be stressed, Majora and not Skull Kid is the primary malevolent actor throughout the game - Mind Control is a bitch), it's clear that Majora does, in fact, understand that it's causing pain and actively enjoys causing it (evident in all the little, petty things it takes time to do to screw over others).

There is no evidence that Majora is forced to act that way. There is ample evidence that Majora enjoys causing suffering towards others. I see nothing that would disqualify Majora based on its nature.

edited 23rd May '14 7:48:46 AM by 32_Footsteps

Welcome back, sir.

The prodigal son returns.

Well, The Joker may not understand good, but he knows what he's doing is evil.

But that mostly depends on what version of the Joker you're talking about.

I believe the appropriate term in this case is actually prodigal father - I stopped regular participation to raise a child, after all. Also, last I checked, I was one of the older participants in this thread at the age of 34.

To throw a couple other thoughts out, @25606, you've been around long enough, you should know Weblinks Are Not Examples. Also, I thought we settled the Final Fantasy series over a year ago, back when I did regularly participate. Why is that being revisited?

I know that I was just using that as a resource to help for an expanded writeup (which I may give a go myself).

I left work early; I'll take a stab at Carver.

• Is Super Sentai Monsters ready to go? Shadam may need work, and other entries seem too conversational.

I was going through the Film sandbox and removing excessive spoilers, and I wonder: For Irréversible, is Le Tenia bad enough. Sure, the rape is extremely hard to watch, but isn't that all he does? Is one rape enough to qualify? Szell as well, though he has 2 murders and Cold-Blooded Torture to his credit.

edited 23rd May '14 1:19:21 PM by ACW

Welcome back 32 Footsteps!

First things first: wrapping up the Kamen Rider clean-up with a revised Rook entry:

• The Lion Fangire, also known as Rook, is an Ax-Crazy, merciless, and easily bored sociopath who treats the lives of humans and monsters alike as a game. 22 years before Wataru becomes Kamen Rider Kiva, Rook murdered Yuri Aso's mother so brutally that Yuri swore vengeance on all Fangires (including Wataru's mother Maya). He also was single-handedly responsible for driving the Wolfen race to near-extinction, leaving Jiro as the sole survivor of his genocidal rampage. As the flashbacks progress, Rook devises his personal game to combat boredom called the "Time Play", in which he hunts and eats a select group of people within a time limit. If he succeeds in killing the intended number of people, he rewards himself with ice cream; fail and he self-punishes himself with electric shocks. His already suspect sanity gets even worse when he reawakens and regains his memories in 2008. He proposes a new game which would have him do good deeds before getting himself killed not out of a change of heart but from boredom from constantly playing the "Time Play" game.

Coming to think of it, I'm going to put the kill order on Motoko Saeki's entry. She fails the heinousness standard when compared to Dr. Isaka and Eyes Dopant.

edited 23rd May '14 9:05:27 PM by sanfranman91

Sensei seems to fail the heinous standard too. I mean, running over someone's hand?

Came back from X-Men: Days of Future Past. No one in that movie qualifies for this trope.

Honestly I'd say what Le Tenia does pushes him way over.

The one rape?

For nine minutes, and then he brutalizes her into a coma for good measure. And cut Saeki.

And Szell qualifies. Easily. Murder, cold blooded torture, and he casually slits the throat of a holocaust survivor who remembered him.

edited 23rd May '14 2:21:51 PM by Lightysnake

Also Le Tenia apparently has limited screen time so he goes as far as he can.

Fair enough. They stay (though for Le Tenia wouldn't murder be as far as he could go?). What about Sensei though? Unless I'm missing something...

edited 23rd May '14 2:31:38 PM by ACW

I already posted this on its appropriate YMMV page, but just so I don't second-guess myself, here's the entry I put for Big Top in the fanfic Fanfic/Misunderstandings

Complete Monster: Big Top is a Manipulative Bastard who runs a freak show that consists not only of exotic monsters, but sentient beings. One of them is Sveti, who he blackmailed into becoming one of his exhibits with information about her father's Interspecies Romance and a minotaur who he turned into a brainwashed husk. His crew has some share of the blame, but at least don't take sadistic pleasure in what they do the way he does, and get in line out of fear of what he'd do to them.

Oh look who was added on YMMV.X Men Days Of Future Past:

• Complete Monster: Bolivar Trask. Killing your enemies is one thing, but dissecting and experimenting on their corpses is another.

I repeat. No one from this movie is a Complete Monster.

"Killing your enemies is one thing, but dissecting and experimenting on their corpses is another." Um, no, not quite. Now, if they were still ALIVE, then maybe.