During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I haven't seen Heat. That Danny Trejo thing is just weird There is an actor named Neil McCauley right (even if he doesn't appear in that movie)?
I am actually not sure, there, but the names are correct in that entry
Didn't say they weren't. Just wondering why I thought the one was wrong in the first place.
Transformers Prime reveals that Megatron gets a redemption after all the psychotically evil stuff he did. Permission to cut?
Unicron gets more characterization and may be a replacement for him. As for Silas, he goes out with a possible Alas, Poor Villain but it's more like he's happy to be out of his deserved misery. Thoughts?
Isn't Unicron a unique, multidimensional singularity being? It's the same persona in every piece of Transformers media. Shouldn't all his crimes across the franchises existence be counted somewhere?
Lost in Space
Unicron is evil by choice from what I understand.
And yes, Megatron is different in every incarnation. Some, like from Transformers Armada even end as a Noble Demon while the one from Beast Wars was a psycho megalomaniac who took the name from the original Generation One Megatron as an egotistical gesture.
The one in Prime hits every count for the heinous standard and ended the series as a CM. the closing movie, however, gives him a last second redemption. Nigh literally
Lost in Space
That doesn't make sense. Unicron cannot be both evil by choice and be an embodiment of the force of destruction, which is inherently evil. My understanding is that if Unicron were ever truly destroyed, some other force would take his place. You're suggesting that while he may destroy stuff because it's his nature, he enjoys it by choice? Seems to be kind of an arbitrary distinction.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
from what I understand, Unicron is the embodiment of darkness because he chose to be. He and Primus explored the cosmos together until Unicron grew corrupt and evil, which led Primus to try and stop him.
According to the Transformers wiki, there are in fact Multiversal singularities. Unicron is one of them, as is the Fallen, whom you may remember from the second Live action transformers movie.
Yes, although Unicron can move between universes at will whereas Primus simultaneously exists within all of them
Lost in Space
That may be one of the first cases I've ever heard of two Physical Gods embodying primal opposite aspects by choice.
I only watched the first live-action film, not the second, but is The Fallen canon within the TF universe? I got the impression that the films are a separate continuity.
Whatever, if Unicron chose to become a world-devouring abomination, then he could qualify for CM.
edited 16th Sep '13 1:43:22 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The films are a separate continuity, but it's the same Fallen from the overall franchise, the same character from the comics.
Actually, is it that unusual? In, say, DND, there are multiple gods who ascend to portfolios by choice. Lolth, for one is the goddess of chaos and evil Drow, but she started as a member of the Elven Pantheon and fell due to spite and greed. Cyric was the god of murder, tyranny, death and evil and embodied all those concepts but he was a mortal who aspired to the position originally.
The Fallen indeed began as a comic character as well
Lost in Space
Yeah, but Primus and Unicron aren't like Saint Cuthbert or Lolth. They are more like God and Satan; the overdeity and underdeity, so to speak. In Diablo verse, the equivalent would be Anu and Tathamet. Very, very rarely do such beings choose their roles, mainly because they occupy positions mandated by the metaphysics of the universe itself.
edited 16th Sep '13 1:50:13 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Avatar by Leafsnake
Transformers Creation myths, hooray (not sarcasm)
Megatron: Lightysnake is right, he does get a last second redemption.
Silas: Alas, Poor Villain
Unicron: Hard to judge. He, the Fallen, the Thirteen and Primus are apparently the same througout the entire multiverse (well, them and Sideways). This raises some questions about Alpha Trion, but he's not important right now. In Prime Unicron tries to wipe out humanity, but does so because he sees them as pests as they grew on him when he was asleep, and now he thinks they've infested him (like how one would have lice). After that he tries to take possession of Megatron, tortures him and tries to kill Primus, thus dooming all the Transformers as they could no longer reproduce without him. Unicron always tries to kill Primus in all continuities. I looked on Tfwiki, and the creation myths always differ (the most recent one doesn't even have Unicron, but he has been foreshadowed in the IDW comics). They are as follows
- A great being created Unicron to explore the universe, then divided him into Primus and Unicron, though Unicron proved corrupt and tried to kill rimus.
- Unicron always existed since the dawn of time as a primal force of evil opposing Primus as the primal force of Good
- Unicron predates this universe and destroyed the previous one, when this one was formed, the entity at the center of it made Primus as Unicron would destroy this one as well
That's the legends I found.
Lost in Space
Those creation myths (except the first, maybe) don't seem to allow for the possibility of Unicron being evil by choice. Still, he is a Physical God regardless of which myth you apply, and in that sense should probably be exempt under the "embodiment of evil" clause.
edited 16th Sep '13 2:00:27 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I can qualify embodiements of evil only if they show moral agency in the matter.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I didn't know the creation myths differ, just the one where Unicron chose his path.
But on Silas, here's my issue. Silas is experimented on by Knockout with Dark Energont hat turns him, and his Decepticon shell, into an energon vampire. Upon freeing Airachnid from her captivity, she kills him. Silas thanks her before expiring.
It may be possible to pity Silas, but...
1. Nobody feels pity for him at all. 2. he does not repent anything he's done 3. He does not do anything remotely good to atone. He's simply glad to be free of the pain he'd been deservedly thrown into.
I'm not sure I can vote to disqualify him on that alone.
Lost in Space
Also, a Made of Evil being "choosing" to be what it is is not really a choice. It's only moral agency if there is the possibility that such a being could choose to be something other than what it was created as. If the Devil has the choice to take up vacationing in Aruba rather than tempting souls into damnation, then he could be said to have moral agency. Or more appropriately, if Unicron could, even in theory, seek atonement for his actions and/or try to fix a universe that would conjure such an elemental evil into being in the first place.
That entry doesn't sound monstrous; it sounds more like someone transformed into a monster and becoming Drunk on the Dark Side, involuntarily.
edited 16th Sep '13 2:07:33 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The issue was Unicron, in that creation, was created by The One to explore the universe. He eventually became corrupt and tried to destroy Primus of his own volition.
Oh, and to elaborate. Silas's monstrosity wasn't that whole bit. Silas was a monster before he was captured and experimented on by Knockout. He was the leader of a terrorist group where he earned the CM credentials
Lost in Space
Do we know which of those myths is true? Or which is true in any particular universe? Without canonicity to Unicron's motives, all we have to go on is that he's the TF universe's embodiment of evil, which leaves him without moral agency.
As for Silas, that's fine. I was concerned that his end was intended to be a Dying as Yourself moment, meaning he wasn't morally responsible for his actions.
edited 16th Sep '13 2:12:23 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silas definitely has a Dying as Yourself moment. To explain, he starts at the leader of a terrorist group when he's human, and ends up horribly injured in a fight. His men save him by putting him in a dead Decepticon, and after murdering them, he goes to join the Decepticons. After he fails, Megatron gives him to Knockout to experiment on and dissect...in an experiment go wrong, he's mutated, and later killed by Airachnid. He's quite glad to die at that point.
TF wiki says the 'current' canon version of the myth is the two were created and Unicron later fell to evil
edited 16th Sep '13 2:19:31 PM by Lightysnake
Avatar by Leafsnake
Okay, time to write about Silas, warning, I ramble, so please indulge me.
Silas, born Leland Bishop, was a united States Colonel who retired from the military and stole some tech from their division, he leads the organization MECH. He kidnapped the Decepticon Breakdown, and tried to Vivisect him, cutting out an eye and removing some of his insides, and then trying to blow up the rescue party. He then made a deal with Airachnid (a clear cut CM in her own right) to kidnap Jack and his mother, showing a willingness to let both die as long as he could kill Arcee and take her parts. After that he makes a deal with Starscream to capture Bumblebee and cut out his transformation Cog, not killing him because they only had enough time to take his part. When that plan goes south, he cuts out Starscreams and leaves. He builds Nemesis Prime, an Optimus knockoff and sets him loose on a military base. I don't know if anyone died because human death is rarely shown, but he tries to kill the Autobots with it, and is only stopped when it's dropped on him. With his body smashed and his organs damaged, the MECH soldiers find Breakdown's corpse, and place Silas's remains in it.
Now this is where it get's tricky, the episode description says that the decisions that Silas makes in Breakdown's body are uncharacteristic, like him joining the Decepticons, and being willing to serve under Megatron inspite of him thinking that all Cybertronians were inferior. I don't know if the mental link was messing with his head or if he's just found a new sense of power. He ends MECH by killing the remaining soldiers under him and joining Megatron. He uses a Kill Sat to try and take out the kids' house, but when that fails, Megatron has Knockout take him away.
Knockout performs numerous torturous experiments on Silas, eventually Starscream injects him with a Synthetic Energon and Dark Energon Cocktail, which turns him into a mindless monster in constant Pain. He kills a good deal of the Decepticons on the ship and turns them into Vampire/Zombie hybrids, which go on to kill more, until the Decpticons are reduced by half. After that, he releases Airachnid, and she fights him and fatally stabs him. Dying, he gives her a relieved, genuine smile, and thanks her for putting him out of his misery.
Curses, I've been ninja'd
edited 4th Dec '13 3:20:57 PM by DrPsyche
My issue with the Alas, Poor Villain is that while Silas's fate is admittedly horrific, it's nothing he didn't bring on himself. He isn't pitied by anyone when he's taken out, he has no good qualities and he doesn't showcase any even after things happen to him. He's simply glad to be free of his agony given the And I Must Scream situation he was in.
