During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Anyways...from the Webcomic Goblins...unfortunately we have to cut the villain Kore.
Now, Kore is a dwarf paladin who makes it his mission in life to exterminate 'evil.' Unfortunately, Kore's definition of evil is "any race I deem evil and anyone who gets in my way," He's a genocidal killer who's slaughtered untold thousands of goblins, orcs, etc. and goes out of his way to attack villages, killing any civilian he comes across. At one point he massacres an inn full of 'evil' creatures, the bartender having an adopted dwarf child. Kore kills the child as well because any association with 'evil' must also be purged. Most notably, when he fights the Goblin Adventuring Party, one of them, Chief, tries to hold Kore off. Kore mortally wounds him, but then uses Paladin powers to heal him so he can lure the others out by horribly torturing Chief so they're drawn by his screams to save him. Oh, and he's been at this for centuries, stealing the souls of victims to prolong his life.
Sounds like a bastard? Well...
A long, long time ago, Kore and a group of other paladins fought an army of demons in Hell, with Kore the only survivor. It was believed Kore created a prison known as the Axe of Prissan to trap the demons, but this is a lie. In fact, Kore was cursed by the demons to create the axe, with a multitude of lesser demons and their god, a demon deity known as The Sacred, contained within...The axe is a delivery system. The more evil it is used for, the more the axe degrades and eventually, it will shatter, allowing the Sacred to step into the world and make it another plane of hell...and the Axe has to be used by Paladins because demons love eating Paladins.
So, Kore? Is brainwashed and cursed into committing evil deeds and seeing them as good, as a long-term gambit by a demon god. Therefore, no moral agency.
Lizzid people!
I did remove Ze from the YMMV page; I'll go to the Edits Request forum to request the cut.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Kore.
edited 20th Sep '16 6:37:27 AM by AustinDR
Lost in Space
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Agreed with the cut on Kore. He's been revealed not to be acting under his own volition; ergo, he can't be a CM due to failing the moral agency clause.
It has been two weeks since the season 2 finale of Zoo. Nobody counts. The Shepards are a group and well-intentioned extremists and General Davies is a well intentioned extremist as well. I don't think anyone will count in season 3 either
Yep, seems cut and dry unless there's a Not Brainwashed double-twist later on.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
DDD: Maybe, but if his boss ordered him to kill the kid, that still makes me iffy...
Yeah, sounds like Kore is a cut.
edited 20th Sep '16 6:39:33 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
It shouldn't only be new information. It should also be if the reasons for why they're kept or not are dubious, or in the case of Game mechanics, false. I also haven't seen anybody go over my point of how sex with the cow doesn't automatically mean that he only think of her as a sex toy (I don't think that losing a sex toy would cause psychological damage either, but I digress)
At first I thought maybe discussing Joffrey further might have had credence, but now, I can't believe it's gotten as far as it has.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to keeping Frey. His one bad act is the worst mass killing in the show's history and each individual thing about it is awful in itself as well.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Worst mass killing? Didn't Cersei's destroying the Sept have, like, hundreds of casualties (at least)?
Cut Kore. No moral agency.
Given some of the comments you've made in the past and some of the questions you've asked, I'm not sure where you get off sneering at anybody else. Exister raised several points which had not been brought up before vis a vis the show version of the character. Other people are weighing in on one side or the other. That is how this thread works. You don't like the discussion? You don't have to be a part of it.
If you aren't mature enough to handle the possibility of a character you want kept getting cut, then you are not mature enough to be a part of the thread, and you should do everyone, yourself included, a favour and bow out.
I really didn't want Commodus going up. I remain unconvinced and think he's a terrible example. I didn't threaten to leave the thread over it, and once he did go up, I continued to post here as normal. Lightysnake opposed the cutting of Todd—I didn't see him threatening to quit over it.
There are no "obvious" keepers and the only "insult" to the trope is putting up someone who doesn't qualify. That's why discussions like this are important.
In fairness, until the last few minutes of the series to date it was the worst mass killing (though I suppose most battles technically have a higher body count).
Is Walder even up for debate? He's less hands-on, but he's been shown to be utterly deplorable and heinous both in-universe and out.
edited 20th Sep '16 7:17:39 AM by Larkmarn
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
No, why would Walder be up for debate right now? Future, please stop with this whole thumbs upping or thumbs downing random people who have no relevance to the discussion at hand
edited 20th Sep '16 7:19:46 AM by Lightysnake
Iunno. Futuremoviewriter just mentioned him. Unless he's shortening "Joffrey" to "Frey" which would be... confusing.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Someone earlier had suggested revisiting Walder but no post arguing to cut was ever actually made. Until such time as someone makes an actual argument for cutting him, I'd say there's not much to discuss (hard to respond to an argument nobody has made).
@Ambar: That large post you partially quoted got thumped. Probably best to just avoid that conversation altogether now.
Anyway, yes to cutting Kore.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
edited 20th Sep '16 7:40:06 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
We really need to wait on this.
Well, this spiraled into a shit-show.
I'll concur on cutting Kore, unfortunate as it is, and cut Bill and Ze as well. The recent arguments I think have just pushed me back to abstaining on Joff... the character's by nature a sociopath but enough arguments can be made in both directions for those qualities that I can reasonably see either applying. I can't decide for certainty myself.
And in lieu of the recent arguments, again, this whole debacle seems to becoming frighteningly close to a badge of honor bias. Both me and Ambar specifically said not to use Joffery otherwise being a "go-to" example of a Monster as a reason to vote. Saying cutting him would be an "insult to the trope" is flagrant misuse and I'll concur it's the epitome of immaturity. We've been over this sort of thing numerous times. Honestly.
The Unknown
Cut Kore for lacking moral agency.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Kore, Bill, and Ze.
Really glad I never got into ASOIAF.
Cut Core I guess.
I'll give a hesitant to keeping show Joffrey.
So, I guess we're cutting D'arby. Does ACW do the cutting of monsters as well, or does another troper do that?
Anyone can submit cuts. We've got Dwarfstar (though he appears to be going with the Secret Six swapping), Bill, Kore, and Ze Pequeno as surefire cuts... what's the tally on show!Joffery? And is Cook-Cook going anywhere?
Planeswalker
on keeping Show!Joffrey.
edited 20th Sep '16 8:42:42 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
I'm saying that Kore's arc is not done yet.
I vote to keep Joffrey.