Split?: Doomed By Canon

I think that the Real Life examples of Doomed by Canon could use a split from the trope under something like Doomed By History because they are quite different someone who is 100% fictional and someone who was a real life person.

Real Life doesn't have a canon does it? Wipe it?

I mean like movie based on Real Life where people die IE The Titanic is different than someone who is shown later on in the contiuity to be dead.

Those are both under Doomed by Canon at the moment.

You see what I mean right? (Rather tired ATM)

edited 11th Nov '10 10:39:53 PM by Raso

It's basically a Historical Fiction trope. You're writing something based on real events and because history says they die, you have to kill them.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I don't think a Doomed By History would be amiss.

I think they're sufficiently different to warrant distinct tropes. It's one thing to know that Prince Xizor will fail to kill Luke Skywalker because you already watched Return Of The Jedi. It's something completely different to know that things won't go well for Col. Shaw at Ft. Wagner because you have an enthusiasm for the American Civil War.

I'm not sure Doomed By History is tropable. In many cases (eg Titanic), the outcome of the event is never in question but the fate of individual characters isn't clear. In others (eg Band of Brothers), while the fates of the characters are sealed by what actually happened, you wouldn't really be expected to know that unless you'd already seen the work. In still others (the most blatent recent example being Inglourious Basterds), history is ignored and people who should be Doomed by Canon aren't.

Anyway... maybe YKTTW it?

edited 12th Nov '10 7:33:18 AM by NativeJovian

In the case of the Titanic, the characters may be in question, but the ship itself if Doomed By History. In the case that it's following actual historical characters which is far more common, then this trope comes into play. Inglorious Basterds would be a subversion

wouldn't Inglorious Basterds be an inversion? hitler wasn't supposed to die, he was supposed to live.

EDIT: i would vote for a split, btw. Doomed By History works for me. i think it happens often enough to warrant its own trope.

edited 12th Nov '10 7:46:23 AM by carla

That's why it would be a subversion. You're set up to think that the Basterds are Doomed By History, but then the movie decides to ignore history, subverting your expectations.

right, that makes sense. i was looking at it backwards. nevermind.

Well, looking at it one way, History is Canon for Real Life.

But still I think a split is reasonable.

Tropeman! To the YKTTW!

YKTTW? I figured it would be decided here. (I am new to these types of things really.)

Usually if a split is approved, the new page that would emerge has to go through YKTTW.

Personally, though, I object to a split. Doomed By History is just redundant when we'd be talking about stories intentionally set in historical settings to explore that very history. It's like making a trope like Good Guys Win; it just feels redundant and overall pointless.

Any examples on Doomed by Canon that are based on storied accounts of events in history should just be removed from the page.

edited 13th Nov '10 10:22:52 AM by SeanMurrayI

Wait, do we really not have Good Guys Win? How Did We Miss This One?

^Too common for us to realize we needed it, perhaps.

Ahh Ok. Well looking at Historically based movies like say The Titanic you go into the movie knowing that the Ship is a Foregone Conclusion because it is literally Doomed By History IMO something like that is very trope worthy (Both Doomed By History and Doomed by Canon would be sub-tropes of Foregone Conclusion and sister tropes of each other.).

I think that is People Sit On Chairs at the highest level... however the inversions The Bad Guys Win might be trope worthy. (EDIT: hey what do you know that's a trope. )

edited 13th Nov '10 10:39:15 AM by Raso

^I know what a Doomed By History trope would aim for; I just don't think it's really worth pointing out that when someone goes to see a Biopic or historical recreation, he/she knows it's going to cover all the big moments the person/event is known for.

It's just the point to making a Biopic or historical recreation.

edited 13th Nov '10 11:21:39 AM by SeanMurrayI

Omnipresent Trope, but not People Sitting On Chairs.

Is there going to be a split, or are we just leaving this?

edited 5th Dec '10 1:49:39 PM by Sackett

I'm still against a split for the reasons I've already divulged.

But most of the works that this is used for aren't simple biopics. A lot of times The Gump will interact with historical characters that are tangential to the main story and those characters will be known to die.

^The Gump and Historical In-Joke would both be very much separate from what Doomed By History would sincerely entail.

This isn't supposed to be about comedic and fictitious explanations for famous historical events; this is intended to be about establishing and maintaining a straight-forward timeline, much like Doomed by Canon or Biopic.

edited 5th Dec '10 2:01:49 PM by SeanMurrayI

No, a character in a work that doesn't revolve around them can still be doomed by history.

That's just Historical Fiction.