Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Alright... lemme get cracking on the Dukes stuff:
- Swamp Molly, Sounds graceful and tricky enough with her leading on the heroes and amiable ending with them. I'll say yes.
- Carla, Hmm... she's okay but I see a good chunk of time with the heroes using their own expertise of terrain to push her back and her end doesn't sound like it's got the grace of Molly's. Leaning no.
- Snake, I guess if he's evaded arrest for two years but this might be running into an Informed Attribute situation, he just seems to have people spy on a courthouse in practice, I'm not quite sure I'm getting "brilliant" here and I'd like some discussion.
- Ma, I think I'll lean yes, parts of the EP are hard to follow but from what I'm seeing she wins her bet and plays her arrest cool.
- Lisa, Looks like rather generic plotting and the temperamental comment at the end doesn't help. Leaning no.
- Linda, Yes there, seems to hit all the marks.
- Alabama, Level of plotting blending together with some of the others and she's turned into a scapegoat, even if she gets menacing. No.
- Big Daddy & Ernie, The former sounds like he's got more charm and fun, plus he's the boss... I'm going to say yes to him but no to Ernie.
- Jenkins, He sounds like a bit character who tips off Ernie and is then forced off with a stolen license plate. Minor Karma Houdini but he fails in his objectives and strikes more as having a few moments of intelligence more than being a genius. No.
- I've given my two cents here, yes to Percy.
- Burke and Perry, I'd like more details about their ending, abstaining for now.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Carla does have a pretty clever plan and the camera doesn't linger on her long enugh after her arrest to give her time to be graceful the way Molly is (a common occurence in this show).
Snake personally spies on courthouses some of the time and he has been doing that trick for years while being stealthy enough that Jude never suspected. He recrutis the Dukes when he sees them with Jude to spy on Jude. He distracts Jude with a friendly conversation in a fight so an enemy can approach him. He managed to recurit accomlish local criminals and set up a hideout in a nearly impenetrable swamp. EDIT: His hijhacking operation, while offscreen, is successful enough that organized crime is deeply interested in taking it over for themselves. He also seems to have some good insight into people, as when one of his men casually calls the Dukes losers and bad racers, Snake correctly deduces what that really means is that they beat the guy and his trying to make them look bad.
Your complaints about Jenkins are confusingly worded and I have a hard time understanding what you mean. He is an accomlished robber who only gets spotte with the license plate by bad luck because of Cooter (and Boss not telling him where he got the new license plate from, making him not know he had to keep it hidden) and gets chased down in a race car while he has a pickup and still escapes with his brake ploy.
Burke and Perry are overpwoered because they can't both fihgt Luke at the same time while sterring the remote-controlled car. They come within about ten seconds of using it to hit the train and knock it over. They don't get much focus after being arrested and led off but aren't shouting or wzinvg their fists or cursing or anything. IN earleir scenes, they are reasonably polite to Boss even while being insulted or disagreeing with him.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 26th 2023 at 9:10:23 AM
Jaded Techie Fox
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Yang, Anne, Mary, Harumi, Freya, Snead and Neal
And this is the issue... these blur together heavy. I fail to see what I've worded "confusingly", Jenkins might be a successful robber but in practice I don't see what he does other than try to get his license plate changed, tip off the other villains and then fails to get his plate changed. I'm saying no.
Snake I'm fine with but I'd like to revisit if someone views and takes issue, I'm sticking with my vote on Carla.
What you worded confusingly is the issue abotu his license plate. He does get it changed, he just gets tracked down and has it taken back due to factors completley beyond his control.
... then he "fails" to get off with the new license plate. He does not meet his objectives and I don't think he makes the trope. "He got it and later lost it" vs. "He fails to get it" doesn't functionally make a difference within the context of achieving what he set out to do.
I can see what your saying about what he does and how he rates compared to everyone else, although the voters did disagree at the time.
Not sure if he's a closed case yet.
Good point.
Also, while Ernie is pretty subordinate to Big Daddy, he has some moments of charm on his own, is respectful to his boss in a tense situation, and can do some quick improvisation of his own when a scheme goes bad.
To Freya. Looking forward to the other upcoming God of War candidates
Lies and Violence!
Freya and the get smart duo.
What's the work?
Taking a break from Ninjago for something very fun I stumbled across, Clone High is a show following the adventures of teen clones of historical figures, parodying teen dramas and "very special episodes."
Episode 11 features "Snowflake Day," a politically correct, all-inclusive holiday that has been violently forced onto the world, which centers around a pirate captain named "Snowflake Jake" who shoots cannonballs of spices at people's houses.
I don't understand either, and I fucking love it. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Anyway, the plot of the episode is focused on one of the clones, Joan of Arc, taking out her personal issues (i.e. her house burning down, among other things) by lambasting the holiday... at least until she encounters a certain homeless person, who may or may not be a famous popstar.
Who is the Homeless Person That May or May Not Be Mandy Moore?
A hot homeless person who insists she isn't Mandy Moore, Mandy encounters Joan while she's angrily throwing away trash to give her advice... and also ask her for 50 cents. Joan's a tad too angry/megalomaniacal at the moment to be taking her advice, but her schemes to ruin the holiday don't make her happy and she runs away from home.
Mandy, spying on this, goes to comfort Joan, taking her to her old burned down house, where a bunch of homeless people are partying. Seeing how they're able to enjoy the season without fancy things like spices or a balanced diet, merely by having fun with their friends, Joan's Snowflake Day spirit is restored and she brings the homeless people to her family's party.
After a bit of fun, the guests hear loud bangs coming from the street—Snowflake Jake is making the rounds with his cannonballs. Mandy tells the excited crowd to go downstairs so they don't get hit, only to suddenly disappear. Joan concludes that she was an angel, thanking her for restoring her spirit, and the episode closes...
With Mandy and the other homeless people loading up a bunch of Joan's family's furniture into a broken down van that makes cannonball noises as it drives, merrily escaping as the partygoers wait in the basement.
Mitigating qualities?
Small but fun role. Mandy comes in to fix Joan's holiday spirit, reunite her with her family, and then rob her blind. There's enough cleverness to go with it; even if she didn't intentionally have the homeless peoples' shitty van sound like a cannon, she's more than quick enough to jump on it when others come to that conclusion and manipulate them into leaving the room so she can commence with the burglary.
Admittedly, maybe her victims are a bit too stupid for it to really count as "magnificent", but the other character up is Jack Black selling raisins as drugs that don't even get you high. I don't think we should look at it that seriously.
Not the Eye
to not Mandy Moore . I need to watch this show.
Yes to Freya & Mandy Moore(?). Helps that her main victim is Joan, the Only Sane Woman.
Woagh
to Homeless Mandy Moore with a capitol ? and Freya.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 26th 2023 at 12:52:34 PM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
To Mandy
Goku Black
Mandy.
Actually guys. For the dukes stuff. Could you move it here
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2023 at 1:10:02 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to "Mandy" and sure, one sec!
Ultimate Moral Compass
Can't believe I forgot this one lol. Totally Not Mandy Moore
Given her emotional lows, I'm quite surprised to see Freya going up. But with the way you laid out her cunning, as well as the way she handled Baldur's situation and being willing to make Atreus an orphan in front of him, I'm inclined to give her a .
Looking forward to the Norns and (especially) Faye. The latter's role being mostly off-screen, I'm definitely curious on the case Lightysnake will make for her.
Lies and Violence!
Forgot to mention this, but I also started a Ninjago sandbox—there are currently 8 up, and me and mir have 7 more between us to go through, so I thought it was warranted.
I wanted to make this suggestion but I didn’t know the right people to go to so I assumed I could this was the best place to ask, if it isn’t then I apologize for the mistake. For the Magnificent Bastards Fan Works should RWBY Magnificent Bastards have its own page if you include the ones in the RWBY folder and the works of Coeur Al'Aran?
Edit for correction. I don't think we usually group up fan stuff between different creators.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Mar 26th 2023 at 1:43:06 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lies and Violence!
I mean, I guess? Separating them on the main page feels awkward, but the page isn’t so big that we need to split it, and we could always just move cour’s down (one folder with his, one with “other examples”)?
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Mar 26th 2023 at 4:48:08 AM
Freya, Mandy
@Wet Flannels I'll just put it in the "Others" section in the Web Original sandbox for now (I don't really see a good section for it in "Other Media", unless maybe we create a new section for it). If anyone has a better spot for it, please let me know.
Edit: I changed my mind, I'm gonna try sorting the "where does this work go?" problem on the "Ask The Tropers" page first.
Edited by Koopa22 on Mar 26th 2023 at 11:42:32 AM
Simultaneously hands-on and hands-off with my life.