Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
Hey, so Toranaga from Asian Saga seems to count, but the writeup isn't very good.
- Magnificent Bastard (Shogun): Lord Yoshi Toranaga flawlessly combines The Chessmaster and Manipulative Bastard gloriously, playing an endless game of Xanatos Speed Chess when his plans get derailed. Both Toranaga and his nemesis Ishido had sworn to their late master that they would protect his young son until he was old enough to rule, but Ishido believes Toranaga intends to supplant the boy and become Shogun himself, and he's absolutely right. Toranaga proceeds to manipulate the entirety of Japan, pulling off a set of brilliant, almost impossible gambits to provoke Ishido into war, marginalize his rivals and allow Toranaga to move against them with full support of the populace. In the end, Toranaga's brilliance ends in him completely crushing his rivals and ascending to the position of Shogun with aplomb, with narration even stating that his victory "wasn't an Act of God. It was an Act of Toranaga."
Closest thing I could find to the original proposal:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15255322860A44444400&page=77#comment-1925
Lighty rewrote in the early days and I tinkered with it a bit. What’s the issue?
The Draftsman of Doom
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
For starters, The Chessmaster, Manipulative Bastard, and Xanatos Speed Chess potholes are redundant (inasmuch as most MB candidates fit those tropes), otherwise the candidate wouldn't be approved.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fair point, but we don't usually do it for other entries.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 18th 2023 at 11:36:39 AM
Those aren’t potholes… they’re naming the tropes he’s iconic for. David Xanatos’ entry literally mentions the ones he named, Sky.
David Xanatos gets to have it because he's in the name, but the big majority of Magnificent Bastards display those qualities that are mentioned and they aren't trope namers.
The pessimist sees a dark tunnel, the optimist sees a light, the realist sees two lights and the engineer sees three idiots.
I’m of the mind a classic keeper like Toranaga, with the amount of influence he’s had on literature and other mediums, buys the same allowance. I’ve said my piece and I’ll leave it otherwise.
Caesar
Agreed.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Sorry for not being precise in my criticisms. My three main problems are as follows:
- As others have mentioned, the sentence that more or less spells out the baseline requirements from this trope. I could let The Chessmaster and Manipulative Bastard slide (though ideally, if we're making an exception because of his influence, we should tie the Manipulative Chessmaster statement to one about the legacy he created outside the work), but at the very least, Xanatos Speed Chess should be potholed to "thinks on his feet" or some equivalent. As it stands, that bit reads awkwardly.
- The sentence ending on "and he's right" just feels odd. I think cut that tag and insert the word "correctly" where it fits best.
- This one's just a nitpick, but if we're looking at this entry anyway, the potholes are all in one half.
Disagree. Anyways, gonna mention I'm dropping my reservations.
If it's to a vote I prefer the current, if we don't name Xanatos Speed Chess, we definitely don't pothole it, "the Manipulative Bastard" introduces it's own awkward phrasing that isn't present in the original as well.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 18th 2023 at 10:52:39 AM
Here's an attempt to bring the writing to today's standards, while keeping the debated potholes:
- Magnificent Bastard (Shogun): Lord Yoshi Toranaga is a brilliant and ambitious daimyo. Though swearing to his late master to protect his young son until he's old enough to rule, Toranaga intends to supplant the boy and become Shogun himself. Despite suspicion from his rival, Ishido, Toranaga proceeds to manipulate the entirety of Japan, pulling off a set of brilliant, almost impossible gambits to provoke Ishido into war, marginalize his rivals, and allow Toranaga to move against them with full support of the populace. In the end, Toranaga's brilliance ends in him completely crushing his rivals and ascending to the position of Shogun with aplomb. Lord Toranaga flawlessly combines The Chessmaster and the Manipulative Bastard, thinking on his feet so effectively that his victory "wasn't an Act of God. It was an Act of Toranaga."
Earnestly if we're so against the potholes I think the following rewrite is sufficient and I see no need to alter the rest of the entry:
- Asian Saga's Shogun: Lord Yoshi Toranaga flawlessly combines a mastery of strategy and cunning manipulative tactics, keeping a slew of contingencies for when his plans get derailed...
I'm biased, but I think it's kinda fine how it is with this? Like I'm not too hung up on it, but Toranaga is one of the best I can think of to justify it
I much prefer the old version that Lighty and 43 wrote.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 18th 2023 at 12:44:22 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Since conversation stalled here, basically, I had concerns with how an example was written up that a few people agreed to while others did not, but when actually attempting a rewrite, a most separate group Saud to keep the original. For the sake of resolving this, anybody else want to weigh in?
The Moron
I didn’t know if I really had an opinion but after thinking about it, I think keep the original write up. I don’t see much of an issue with the original when, as others have stated, he’s a very classic Ur-Example, and if there is an issue than the rewrite just seems to move it around rather than erase it, so I think I’m just okay to keep it.
My friends, in accordance with the rules, it's time to propose a cut
From Baldur's Gate, years ago I proposed Duke Sarevok and he's gotta go. Baldur's Gate 3 undoes his redemption arc and brings hm back.
Unfortunately, since then? Sarevok has squandered all hope for redemption. In 3, he's fallen back under the sway of a reformed Bhaal, becoming a broken slave of his father. Worse than that, Sarevok raised his own daughter in a horrific environment to be an abused servitor of the Lord of Murder....and had a child with her, the monstrous Orin, whom he also horribly abused and tried to murder when she was a child. Orin is pure evil, but...
Overall, I cannot see keeping Sarevok as an MB. He's still a plotter, but the arc makes clear he is broken. He has taken every chance he had to be his own man and dashed it to pieces to be a monster who abused his children in every conceivable fashion.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut the duke.
Cut Sarevok.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 21st 2023 at 11:04:31 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I really don't mind Sarevok throwing away redemption and choosing to stay evil. I don't really mind him being an abusive father, as Irenicus is just as bad in that regards with his former loved ones. What I do mind is him having sex with his own daughter. So cut him.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
- Magnificent Bitch: Elena. She allowed herself to be arrested (or "kidnapped") while her heists are set into motion, which she's appears to have planned for years.
Anyone familiar with it?
Cut Sarevok. So would that mean he might get EP’d as a CM? I haven’t played the Baldur Gates so I’m not sure if he had other redeeming qualities that he hadn’t subverted
Sarevok is nowhere near a CM
Not the Eye
Cut Sarevok
G you have been asked several times not to ask questions that could be solved with 5 minutes or so of research!
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
There's an unapproved addition to Max's entry on the YMMV for Mission: Impossible (1996). Would it be worth it to include the tidbit mentioned in Dead Reckoning?
- Magnificent Bitch: "Max" is an Arms Dealer who's an expert not only at keeping her identity a secret to the point that no one knew she was a woman, but in turning American agents to her side as well. For two years, Max employs a treacherous IMF agent she calls "Job"—really Jim Phelps—and plans to pay him for achieving the NOC List which protects deep cover American agents. Knowing Job killed for her to get it, Max trusts Ethan about the list she actually got being a decoy—while also correctly suspecting that he was pretending to be Job—and then hires him to get the actual list for her. Nearly accessing it in the end only to be caught, Max at first starts planning legal strategies to get away with everything, but then quickly becomes interested when Eugene Kittridge offers her a deal instead. Mission: Impossible – Dead Reckoning Part One confirms that she spent the rest of her life in relative comfort, and her criminal enterprise was even allowed to continue (and thrive) under the care of her daughter, Alanna (The White Widow), thanks to her deal with Kittridge.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon