My Little Pony: Cleanup Is Magic

I've expanded the Broken Base entry. Can I cut the DILP entry?

Edited by Javertshark13 on May 2nd 2021 at 3:33:49 PM

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 5 E 21 Hearthbreakers

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Applejack. The episode is supposed to be about her learning to respect the traditions of others and not be more open-minded about the Pie family and their own traditions. However, this glosses over that none of the Pies, not even Pinkie, ever bother to explain their traditions to the Apples and don't show any interest in what traditions the Apples might know. Applejack was trying to make the effort to get along with the Pies, but they did little to make her feel welcome.

This just seems more like an Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for the Pies. Besides, Applejack already has an Informed Wrongness entry on that page. And I don't think Applejack was exactly sympathetic when she tried to force their traditions on the Pies.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, this might actually be right, but for the wrong reasons. Maybe I could try combining the US and IW entries under another item? There might be something else for how viewers felt about Applejack in the episode but I don't know what. Values Dissonance?

Edited by PlasmaPower on May 2nd 2021 at 6:26:58 AM

How exactly would you rewrite it that would distinguish it from Informed Wrongness? I doubt Values Dissonance is it.

Edited by mightymewtron on May 2nd 2021 at 5:31:11 AM

Yeah, it's not Values Dissonance, because it's the Pie's own bizarre traditions that don't have much basis in reality.

I don't know what to do with the entry. It's just that the entry's protraying her as an innocent pony who didn't do anything wrong is rubbing me the wrong way.

Edited by PlasmaPower on May 2nd 2021 at 6:36:44 AM

She was not innocent, but it is also true that the Pies never really explained their own traditions. Actually, considering Pinkie Pie, poor communication could well run in the family.

An Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for the Pies would probably suffice here.

I haven't watched the episode in a long while, so I don't really know if the Pies were really meant to be sympathetic or not.

I think they were. The episode portrayed Applejack as the one who had to learn the lesson, and she was the one who had to learn to respect the other traditions, and the Pies were portrayed as the ones whose holiday got ruined.

At this point it's simply redundant, so I'd say sure. Just mention it's being done per forum discussion in the edit reason.

Regarding the other issue, the Pies were definitely meant to be the sympathetic party but I can also see how that might have been lost in communication. Unintentionally Unsympathetic might be the best option here/

Question about the Series Finale. Would it qualify for Overshadowed by Controversy given the "Grogar Twist", and the fate of the villains which it ties into, seems to be the only aspect fans talk about despite them only making up a fraction of the story (the former is a b-plot beyond kicking it off the main one)?

Honestly you'd think Discord is the focus of the episode when he's 2nd to the villains and the point/focus is Twilight overcoming her final obstacles internal (the point of the twist was to confront her self-doubt by making her think her accomplishments were staged) and external to become Princess of Equestria.

Honestly, as someone who hasn't watched Season 9 yet, I've heard more people talk about Pinkie Pie having a kid with Cheese Sandwich than I have about the "Grogar twist." I don't even really know what said twist is.

The twist is that Grogar did not actually return, it was Discord all along.

And yeah, plenty of people were upset about it, given that Grogar was an iconic villain from G1 that seemed to have a lot of potential, and the twist seems to just waste all that potential for no good reason.

It also means that unleashing the villains was Discord's fault, and he's a Karma Houdinini.

Basically and , yeah. There were definitely a lot of people quite upset about that twist, and there are still a lot of bitter feelings about it.

Discord is not a Karma Houdini as his risking his life to free the others is portrayed as redeeming him, KH is how they're treated by the narrative not an audience reaction. But as it took over a year to create his Unintentionally Unsympathetic for it entry due to the effort to isolate the intentional and unintentional parts there is a big issue.

I also asked Overshadowed By Controversy Cleanup to see if non-fans heard or cared about the issue. If they have it's defiantly notable enough to count, otherwise not sure if example or not.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 14th 2021 at 1:45:27 AM

KH isn't about redemption but about retribution. He never got his karma.

Every cleanup I've seen Karma Houdini brought to said redeemed and repentant characters are misuse. Punishment/suffering isn't the only way to own up to karma as atonement creates enough positive karma to break even. Unintentionally Unsympathetic is the more appropriate trope.

But let's put personal definitions aside (arguing will likely go in circles) and focus on the issue of if Overshadowed by Controversy applies to the finale. (That it triggered this debate argues for.)

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 14th 2021 at 2:17:25 AM

It certainly was overshadowed by that plot twist at the time it aired.

I think it counts, yeah.

Thanks for the spoiler-marking!

I'd say it counts as well. At least in localized circles, arguments over the twist, its aftereffects and its implications were the primary thing people were talking about, and this still seems to dominate discussions of the finale.

Overshadowed By Controversy Cleanup seems to be arguing against the Series Finale being an example as it has not overshadowed the series in the eyes of the general public (apparently it has to be something bigger than just fans opinions and has to effect the entire work not just part). It seems too few non-fans even know of the issue to say it overshadowed the series for them.

Any other arguments for the finale qualifying to bring to the discussion?

Personally, I think a single moment from an episode can overshadow a single episode, but it should probably apply to more than just a Broken Base.

Broken Base now sounds like the better trope for the finale as it lacks the notoriety or relevance outside the fandom for Overshadowed.