Regarding the Echo Chamber videos being used as images and not Video Examples

(Link to ATT thread) I just noticed that The Ace, Mysterious Employer and Romantic False Lead have Echo Chamber videos instead of images for illustrations. Shouldn't those videos be down in the Video Examples and an image be up top instead? Like, doesn't it hurt the page's readability if viewers have to watch a video just to see what the trope actually means when most pages usually just use images that are easier to comprehend?

I also checked VideoSource.Internet and I discovered that most of the other pages with Echo Chamber videos as illustrations no longer have said videos; the whole thing appears to have mostly been phased out as of late. What should be done about the remaining video illustration pages? Should we move the remaining videos down to their video examples?

Edited by N8han11 on Apr 30th 2020 at 3:58:10 PM

I think that moving them to video examples is a good idea. Note that VE can only be up to 150 seconds of length, though that's not because of technical limitations as far as I know, more for Fair Use purposes from what I can tell (but since EC episodes are made for the purposes of the site, we can use them in full). Either we make an exception and just upload the full episodes for each trope, or try to crop them to the main example showing parts if possible.

I've always wanted them moved. Echo Chamber videos are incredibly jarring and distracting, not to mention unhelpful. If I want to know how a trope works, the last thing I want to do is watch a video- at least not one as long as the Echo Chamber ones are.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 30th 2020 at 3:09:32 PM

So, if we moved Echo Chamber vids to Video Examples, I guess you'd rather have them cropped to only the parts that show the trope if possible? Of course, the full episodes would stay on WebVideo.Echo Chamber for those interested.

Edited by Piterpicher on Apr 30th 2020 at 9:20:04 PM

Yeah, cropping them would work fine, since they'd link back to the source anyways. Someone else would need to crop them though, since I haven't personally seen them so I wouldn't know what parts to crop out.

I'm also fine with it.

That said though, we need a lot more agreement before we can do this. As much as I personally dislike the Echo Chamber videos, the culture surrounding their existence means we can't just start hacking away at them.

Alright then, I'll wait for more input and maybe a mod to chip in.

FWIW, count my vote for moving Echo Chamber to video examples. Though this does seem like the kind of thing a mod would want a hand in.

I would be careful before making any changes to the Echo Chamber videos. They were made and used in place of page images as part of an explicit agreement with TV Tropes. I don't know if we can alter or move them without violating the terms of that agreement.

That'd be unfortunate if it ends up being the case. I really am not a fan of them; they're incredibly jarring at the best of times, and if I'm actually trying to get a handle on what the trope is, a quick glance at an image seems far more useful than watching a long video I'm not interested in, just to know what does and doesn't qualify as the trope- which is exactly what happened to me regarding Romantic False Lead.

They really get on my nerves, is all. I'm definitely going into this discussion with some bias, but I can't be the only one who finds them more annoying than cool.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 30th 2020 at 5:34:54 AM

Okay, so I just want to be clear: "I don't like this" is not an acceptable reason to change something. Just because you don't doesn't mean other people feel the same way. This is why we have a process of gathering consensus.

I just asked the admins and they said there is no license or other agreement requiring those videos be used as page images, so if we go through a proper IP process, they could be replaced. Obviously, if that happens, they should get reloaded as video examples. There is no length limit issue.

I'm not one for the Echo Chamber video business myself, but I've got no problem with them being Video Examples since they feel like they'd explain the trope better there than as the designated page image. I'd just want the pages that have them to have proper images; I feel like a several-minute video goes against the rules about picking a image; namely, it's not immediately clear or concise since you have to watch the video for a bit to get the meaning rather than simply glancing at an image for a few seconds. It's like a remnant from the earlier days of the wiki when everything was a lot more loose than it was today.

Edited by N8han11 on Apr 30th 2020 at 10:57:18 AM

It wasn't that at all. We had the same rules "back then". Eddie made a deal with those guys.

Yeah, I'm completely aware that my not liking the videos aren't a reason to remove them. I'd just really like if we could because I don't like them- but I'm in no way trying to trump consensus or demand a change based solely on my own opinion.

I feel that having an image would be more concise than a video.

Edit: To be clear, they can stay as video examples.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 30th 2020 at 9:54:24 AM

Should I ping the mod who normally handles IP?

My thoughts are to leave the videos, in full, in the Video Examples section and get actual images for those pages. Hopefully, the other end won't mind as long as we keep them on the page.

To be clear, I hate them as they are now in the image spot. I'll have no issue with them if they get moved. Their being in the image spot just causes an unnecessary amount of problems with no real benefit.

For what it’s worth, I tried moving it to the video examples but it was rejected for being too long. Should I crop it and try again?

If they're too long, then instead of putting them in Video Examples, transplant them to the Echo Chamber article, perhaps as a subpage.

Yeah, that could work. If the videos are too long to be video examples, we could just link back to them or Echo Chamber in some way.

Edited by N8han11 on May 1st 2020 at 2:06:29 PM

I don't think we should remove the Echo Chamber videos unless we have actual images to replace them. There used to be more pages that had them than just this three, but apparently the links were broken or something. The Ace had an image pulled a long time ago (it was some fake trading card).

I don't know if others would agree with me, but I find those videos less helpful than not having an image at all. The entire purpose of an image is to illustrate the trope's meaning in a quick, visual way that people can quickly catch onto. Videos do the exact opposite of that- they just aren't useful for the same purpose, so treating them as though they're images and giving them the Keep Until Better Image Suggested treatment seems to be ignoring the fact that they're not at all doing the job an image would do. Not having any replacement wouldn't be a big deal if it means fixing the problem we currently have, though that's my general thought process whenever there's a bad image and no replacement suggestion. A blank page is better than a problematic one.

I think Fighteer's comment above "if we go through a proper IP process, they could be replaced" means we need images to replace them.

Not necessarily; I don't see why going through IP would require a replacement.

But since we're now discussing using IP at all, I'd like to get ~Willbyr's thoughts on the matter.

Each page should at least get its own separate Image Pickin' thread.