Death Battle cleanup

Even more than close if they say something to the effect of "the loser was outclassed could have put up a good fight against the winner" that shouldn't be a Curb-Stomp Battle either.

I think it's a little premature to call consensus on anything but "Allow examples where the analysis describes the matchup as one-sided, even if the animation shows a close fight" (which seems to be unanimous). At time of writing, both of the options on whether to allow entries that the hosts claim are close despite their analysis claiming otherwise have net negative thumbs (an equal number at that, at 1 for/3 against), and only one thumbs up each.

The only thing we seem to have reached a consensus on is that the animation shouldn't be the sole factor.

Edited by TravisTouchdown on Apr 24th 2020 at 8:24:38 AM

Should we take out the "Dragonzord vs. Mecha Godzilla" fight then, or leave it in?

It was considered close, but later on, deemed a stomped due to the power difference. While the page has been cleaned up, this fight I feel should be an example of the current reason.

^That fight is a textbook example of why this debate is happening. One of the hosts explicitly says "that was a close one" at the start of the analysis... only for both of the hosts to immediately backpedal, with the same host going onto to claim that "there was no way that the Dragonzord could put down this son of a 'Zilla" after confirming that MechaGodzilla was better in every way except for experience and that its' best weapon was "over 49,000 times more powerful".

It's a perfect example of why the hosts claiming this when their own arguments for the outcome say otherwise is borderline Character Shilling, and why it should not be grounds for removing them.

Edited by TravisTouchdown on Apr 24th 2020 at 10:22:19 AM

Remember, the Curb-Stomp Battle trope isn't just "One side has a decisive win over their opponent", the trope is "One side has a completely one-sided win against the other"

Wiz explained at the start that finding the winner between Dragonzord vs Mecha-Godzilla wasn't easy since it was a case of skill vs power. While Mecha-Godzilla stomps in the power department, they also mention that Tommy stomps in the skill and experience department. It's just that the power difference is high enough that Mecha-Godzilla is more likely to win before Tommy's experience lets him survive long enough to run Mecha-Godzilla out of battery.

And there have been Death Battle episodes in the past where, according to the hosts, raw stats loses to skill, experience, or some sort of hack. First one that comes to mind is Guts vs Nightmare, where they consider Nightmare as stronger but he still loses since Guts regularly kills stronger Gods and demons. Others include Batman vs Captain America, Toph vs Gaara, and Tony Stark vs Lex Luthor.

So if we're going to include Curb-Stomp Battle examples based on Analysis, the hosts themselves need to state that it was one-sided in the post-analysis. If the hosts explicitly mentions that the battle was surprisingly close or something similar, then it shouldn't count even if they emphasize how big one of the stats of the winners are in the post-analysis to prove why their choice would win most of the time. Big stats just means they win, it doesn't mean that they win, to quote the Trope page itself, "a fight that's extremely one-sided, where one side just absolutely trashes the other with little-to-no effort".

We should take it out. The host call it a close one and explicitly state that the Dragonzord would have provided an intense fight for Mechagodzilla.

This is a problem with a lot of examples on this page people are being very selective with analysis and coming up with their own conclusions instead of what the hosts actually said.

Edited by captainpat on Apr 25th 2020 at 7:59:44 AM

Fights like Mob vs. Tatsumaki and Leonardo vs. Jason Scott should be removed then since they claim it was a close fight or said it was far from one sided.

Edited by Mrbda241 on Apr 25th 2020 at 10:07:03 AM

Regardless, calling the crowner without even hooking it isn't a good move. These things take time and need as many votes as possible.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Ah, sorry about that then. But I did holler for the crowner to be hooked when I made it (or at least I think I did?) so I thought that maybe mods didn't feel the need to hook it to this thread.

Ah, yeah, that happens sometimes. Try and holler again; sometimes they're just busy. It's happened to me before.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Alright, I did that.

---

Anyway, the trope Curb-Stomp Battle is not about a fight where one combatant is much stronger than the other, it's about a fight where one combatant wins almost effortlessly. No matter how many thousands of times stronger one character is said to be, it's not a curb-stomp unless it's actually shown that this difference in power would make the fight hopelessly one-sided. "This was a close fight" or "They could certainly keep up, but..." isn't wording indicative of that. Adding an example despite what the hosts say is inserting your own opinion into what should be an objective page.

If the animation is close, and the hosts describe it as close, then there is no curb-stomping going on anywhere inside of the show itself, only in your interpretation of how the fight would go. There may be an Audience Reaction that you could add to the YMMV page to describe your opinion on their verdict's accuracy, but Curb-Stomp Battle is an objective trope—it needs to actually happen in the show to be an example.

Crowner hooked, sorry for the delay.

I note that in the past couple years, Wiz and Boomstick basically always call the fight a "close match" after the fact, even when it clearly wasn't in the animation, or even when they proceed by explaining how one combatant was several orders of magnitude stronger AND tougher AND faster. So I'm not sure if requiring the word "curbstomp" (or synonym) is going to get us anywhere.

...or maybe that was the point?

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Well, if there aren't that many true curb-stomps in the show, then what's wrong with not having that many examples? Of course, it shouldn't the specific word "curb-stomp", but it should be clear that the hosts think of the fight as completely one-sided and unfair (or that the animation is unfair, if the analysis isn't). It shouldn't be based on a Troper's personal interpretation of the data.

As has been mentioned before, there HAVE been cases where skill and experience trump raw power, so outclassing your opponent in every category doesn't necessarily mean they won't put up a fight anyway.

(Now, I'm wondering what the hell Guts vs. Nightmare, one of the aforementioned "skill beats strength" matchups, is doing on that page, since the whole argument for why Guts wins is that he's able to put in loads of effort to triumph over a stronger foe... note the "loads of effort" part there.)

^Yeah, Guts vs. Nightmare doesn't belong, even in spite of it being a case of But for Me, It Was Tuesday. The entire argument they go with is basically "Guts wins fights against foes who should stomp him all the time, why should this be any different?" Not even any numbers to back that up— thanks Early-Installment Weirdness. It can be culled.

But in general, it's worth noting that almost every time someone with the less impressive numbers wins or is given much of a chance, it's typically due to them having something that basically renders everything else/most of their opponent's advantages meaningless. Bowser vs. Ganon is probably the best example, since Bowser has the statistical edge almost everywhere, but none of that really matters when your opponent simply can't die without preying on their Kryptonite Factor (No Limits Fallacy though it may be, that's the canon, so whatcha gonna do?) and the entire point is determining who would die first in a fight to the death. In most of the cases on the page at time of writing, the loser simply lacks the means to make a match competitive when they're outclassed so badly statistically.

Edited by TravisTouchdown on Apr 27th 2020 at 11:48:59 AM

So, where does this leave us on the whole "hosts say one thing, analysis proves otherwise" debate? Technically speaking going with the analysis over the hosts "won", but it's still a net negative number of thumbs (4 up, 6 down), which doesn't scream "consensus". So... what now?

What won is allowing examples where the analysis describes it as a stomp, regardless of the animation. However, it has to actually BE described as a stomp. Examples where the hosts say it's close have explicitly been voted to not be allowed.

Edited by Zuxtron on Apr 30th 2020 at 10:25:01 AM

The new episode is out, and I don't think it counts as a curb-stomp since they do claim that "Kakashi's wide array of moves certainly kept Kenobi on his toes".

Edited by Zuxtron on May 4th 2020 at 1:28:47 PM

So is Captain Marvel Vs. Shazam not a curbstomp because they said it Push both fighters to their limits and how Marvel could keep up with Shazam's strength of Atlas?

yea that needs to go. A lot of entries have this problem because there's not that many curbstomp animations and the hosts explicitly point out that the loser would still be a tough opponent yet editors keep adding those battles.

Miles Morales VS Static "Ahe-hem, Mr. Morales put up a jolly good show"

Johnny Cage VS Captain Falcon "Johnny Cage certainly held his own against Falcon, with superior martial arts ability and matching Mach speeds."

Aang VS Edward Elric "But even so, Ed's tactics and creativity kept him in the fight."

Mob VS Tatsumaki "This was an incredibly close match. Honestly, if we were to run through this fight a hundred more times, Mob could reasonably win forty or so of them."

and there's obviously a lot more.

Again, if that's that case, wipe it all off and start from scratch. If everyone has a problem with it, start over, look through all the fights, look for the words "Close Fight" or "Kept them on their toes" or anything similar and just do it.

Sorry if this thread hasn't had a post in 3 months but could this count (this is Doomguy vs Master Chief) https://youtu.be/Vm_MFauHzdo

• Master Chief vs. Doomguy ends with one green-armored supersoldier stomping the other into the dirt. Doomguy's more destructive arsenal and him being able to hold all his weapons at once were offset by Chief's comprehensively superhuman body on top of tougher armor on top of regenerating shields and health, greater variety of weapons, and him having long-range weapons thus enabling him to tackle Doomguy at long range whilst Doomguy lacked such weapons. Not even Doomguy's faster speed held an advantage as Chief's far superior reflexes too offset that. Finally, while Doomguy defeating hell was impressive, the vast majority of his enemies were Unskilled, but Strong. Meanwhile, Chief not only had far more experience, skill and training, but has fought enemies who not only were just as tough and strong as Doomguy's enemies, but were much more experienced and skilled, and in many cases tougher and stronger.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Aug 4th 2020 at 9:59:39 AM

oops, almost forgot about this thread

Yea, that would probably be the best way to go about it. We should decide which fights are curbstomps and just delete the rest.

The animation doesn't look like a curbstomp nor did the host call it one so no. Also I'm not really sure there that last point is coming from since the hosts explicited stated Master Chiefs enemies aren't that much different than Doom guys

I went ahead and cut a bunch of examples. I mainly focused on getting rid of the really the really obviously wrong entries, the ones where the hosts explicitly say it's a close match or the loser would still pose a challenge to the winner.

• Wolverine vs Raiden: Because of Wolverine's adamantium skeleton and stubborn healing factor, he was able to hang in there despite Raiden's clearly superior speed and strength.

• Mega Man vs. Astro Boy: While Mega Man's varied arsenal kept Astro Boy on his toes, that's about the only edge he had.

• Raven vs. Twilight Sparkle: This was a tricky one. Both Raven and Twilight possess numerous spells and techniques that could end the other quickly and easily.

• Doctor Strange vs. Doctor Fate: With their maximum potential seemingly unmeasurable, it's easy to make an argument for either one to win. If given the chance, Strange could've certainly, say, stolen Fate's powers, or maybe even just willed him out of existence.

• Ryu vs Jin: This one was a tricky match to decipher. Both Ryu and Jin had many displays of incredible feats

• Carnage vs Lucy: Carnage was a challenging opponent. It was incredibly difficult for Lucy to deal any lasting damage against him.

• Aquaman vs. Namor: Aquaman and Namor's powers were so similar and well-matched, this fight could've reasonably gone in either one's favor. In fact, neither had many powers that the other did not possess in some way.

• Black Widow vs Widowmaker: Given her history, Natasha obviously brought a lot more combat experience to the battle than Widowmaker. Even still, this was far from one-sided.

• Captain Marvel vs. Shazam: This battle certainly pushed both Marvel and Shazam to their limits, but while Carol's experiences with the Phoenix Force and Alephs proves she can hold up to Shazam's Strength of Atlas, she, unfortunately, fell a bit short in most other categories

• Weiss vs. Mitsuru: Weiss was incredibly skilled, her versatility certainly proved a challenge for Mitsuru.

• Aang vs Edward Elric: But even so, Ed's tactics and creativity kept him in the fight. Yet, the Avatar's speed, power, and versatility was too much for him.

• Sasuke vs. Hiei: This was an extremely close match. Sasuke was certainly faster than Hiei given his light speed reactions through scaling to Naruto, and technically he went through superior training, so there's certainly a few versions of this fight where he could use those advantages to take the win.

• Ganondorf vs. Dracula: Ganondorf certainly held his own, but Dracula's more varied magic, greater regeneration, and enormous reserves of power sealed this desert warlock's fate.

• Genos vs. War Machine: Genos was certainly a serious threat in the field of battle. However, Rhodes held a solid advantage in many different aspects.

• Zuko vs Shoto Todoroki: both Todoroki and Zuko held solid advantages over the other. Zuko's martial arts, athleticism, and lightning-fast reflexes meant that if he could get close to Todoroki, he could likely end the fight pretty quick.