This is a thread for checking up on pages for works that have not been released yet, to make sure that they are not straying into rampant speculation or posting crazy behind the scenes spoilers. You can bring both individual examples or entire pages to attention here.
In extreme cases, any page can be locked, but hopefully that won't be necessary.
(As these pages often are hit with zero-context examples and shoehorning as well, all four - speculation, spoilers, ZCEs, and shoehorning may get addressed simultaneously.)
The policy governing this effort is Creating A Work Page For An Unreleased Work. Cleanup is being tracked using the Unreleased Works sandbox.
All pages for unreleased works should include a %% comment at the top of the page, confirming the policy and linking to this thread and the Administrivia page. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the example provided here, but this provides a template to work with.
%% Speculative troping is not allowed on TV Tropes.
%%
%% We trope what DOES happen in works, not what MIGHT happen or is LIKELY to happen.
%%
%% For unreleased works where all we have to go on is advertising and other supplemental materials, we have some detailed guidelines, which can be found at Administrivia/CreatingAWorkPageForAnUnreleasedWork.
%%
%% NOTE - these rules also mean that unreleased works should only have one page image, and that image should NOT be changed again until the work is released.
%%
%% If you have questions, please consult the Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup thread at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15514631230A64268600
%%
%% Thank you.
%%
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 10th 2024 at 8:16:52 PM
The Nintendo Direct and official website fall under the same category as Word of God / Word of Saint Paul: things people say about what will be in the work, not tropable works themselves and not acceptable as the sole source of context.
Pokémon Sword and Shield was locked before the current policy was solidified and still has a lot of speculation on it.
I have created Sandbox.Pokemon Sword And Shield and commented-out the speculative entries. Some might be fixed by citing the teaser trailer.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 5th 2019 at 7:47:53 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
But there is actual in-game footage to back up the claims though.
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 5th 2019 at 10:54:01 AM
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This sort of situation is exactly why I wanted to clarify what counts as WoG.
The information provided on the website is unambiguously part of the work, so there's no reason to exclude it for "speculation".
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
The website is not part of the work. If I buy the game, play the game from start to finish, and never look at the website, I have experienced the work in its entirety.
The website is Word of God, in written form, about what will definitely probably maybe be in a work that has not been released yet and is likely not even finished yet.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 5th 2019 at 8:04:54 AM
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"Definitely probably maybe"?
The website is meant to advertise the work. I fully acknowledge that it is not itself the work being troped, but the information it provides is trustworthy.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Isn't that just All There in the Manual, but for the internet?
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 5th 2019 at 11:06:51 AM
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We have been over this and over this. When a work has yet to be released, yet to even be finished, things can and do change between when creators make statements about what the work is going to be like and when the work is actually finished and released to the public. Sometimes the creators are being intentionally vague and misleading, and sometimes they have every intention of doing exactly what they say and yet plans change because the creative process is unpredictable.
That's true whether that creator statement takes place in an interview, a press release, an article, an official synopsis, a website, or even a livestream featuring game footage. Game footage that in all likelihood comes from an unfinished build of a game that has not been finalized.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 5th 2019 at 8:13:10 AM
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Yes, I quote-mined, which is what the website is doing as well. It's revealing specific stuff from the games to hype anticipation, but this information isn't presented in the same narrative context as the finished product.
I do question if an official website falls under marketing or word of god. I don't think it can qualify as All There in the Manual until the work is released. Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Can the folks here just do me a personal solid and hold off on this argument for today? I'm pretty much spearheading this fledgling policy, and as much as I'd like to assist in this discussion as it progresses, ...I'm at work.
Basically, I don't want a thread implosion.
Since All There in the Manual is about something not present in the work proper being present in supplementary materials instead, I would say that the trope can't happen until the work proper is available for comparison.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 5th 2019 at 8:19:45 AM
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I never said "the website is part of the work". I said "the information provided on the website is part of the work". Note the difference and don't try to quote-mine me.
There is absolutely no basis for claiming this material is speculative. It's pre-release material, but it's not speculation to say "the Rotom Phone will exist in the final work" or whatnot.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Please respect Nombretomado's very reasonable request and chill on this for the moment.
Noting for the record that several tropers are systematically reverting all efforts to keep Characters.Pokemon Generation VIII Families free of Speculative Troping and Zero Context Examples with no effort to discuss the matter or reach consensus, despite links to this thread in the edit history.
Not much to be done about it in the short term without resorting to an Edit War, but a page lock would seem to be in order once moderator attention is back on this issue.
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I'd agree to a page lock on the Characters/ page to sort this out, as long as we can actually come to a consensus instead of arguing over the definition of "speculation" for another twenty pages.
Agreed. though tbh it's just HighCrate and crazysamaritan being sticklers about it, everyone else seems to be okay with the current standards
Anyway, for the time being I've added this to the characters page. Maybe it'll help.
HEY! We know everyone's excited for Sword and Shield and the wonders they hold, but please, please, please don't speculate! You may trope to your heart's content once the full games release, but for now, please stick to information directly shown in official videos or the website, have two sentences at minimum of context, and don't forget to cite your sources in your examples. Thank you.
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Except for the "two sentences of context" (one sentence can be fine) such a warning is probably a good idea.
Additionally, due to the nature of Pokémon, some details probably do not need to be cited in the entry, e.g. "such-and-such is a Fire-type" is okay instead of having to say "the trailer shows such-and-such to be a Fire-type." It's beyond a reasonable doubt that such details are true.
Edited by RallyBot2 on Jun 5th 2019 at 7:33:53 AM
Again: the website is Word of God and not acceptable context.
Again: the page is for the final work, therefore any information that comes from anyplace else must cite where it comes from or it is effectively speculation.
Pokemon typings are far beyond reasonable doubt. They don't have to cite the trailer; that would just be stupid.
OK, you guys?
I am about the post the Administrivia page and post a brief summary here.
But before I do so, let me just address everyone in this thread that, as divisive as this topic has proven to be, it did not need as many snipes, passive-aggressive comments, and otherwise borderline rude behavior as I have seen from day one. We could have had all these conversations without that.
I don't want to see that continue here. When this goes up, that will hopefully answer the pending questions that are left.
But if there is still confusion, you owe all of the participants civility and the benefit of the doubt that everyone is striving in good faith. You can ask questions and voice concerns without passive insults.
This thread is getting locked temporarily. It'll get unlocked afterwards.
Edited by nombretomado on Jun 5th 2019 at 6:52:56 AM
Alright, here is the page: Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work.
Big points:
- These pages must have a confirmed release date, an announced name, and official advertising. Anything without a release date is probably too early in the development process to be troped, and unconfirmed rumors are breeding grounds for speculation.
- These pages are based on an incomplete version of the full work. Certain trope types will, by virtue of their type, be speculative. Do not list tropes in the following categories:
- Anything that requires a certain duration of time. For example, if the work isn't released, then it can't possibly be a Cult Classic.
- Tropes that depend on their role in the story. If you don’t have the full story, you don’t know how it fits into the narrative. See Beginning Tropes, Climactic Tropes, Ending Tropes.
- Audience Reactions may not be used if the particular reaction is dependent on the full work. For example, Best Known for the Fanservice requires seeing the rest of the work to know if the fanservice is the most memorable part of it.
- All There in the Manual, Word of God, and Word of Saint Paul, for practical and pragmatic reasons, are banned from being the sole source of an example, or having examples of their own. They are defined by their relationship to the final work, but we cannot compare it to said work until we have the released work. In covering pre-release works, we are only troping things presumed to be part of the finalized product, and its advertising solely as advertising.
- Things presumed to be part of the finalized product includes trailers, teasers, gameplay footage, and text excerpts.
- Advertising includes official websites, press releases, posters, etc. These are items intended to hype up the work itself, but typically do not include materials from within the work itself. We will not presume that a statement on a website is confirmation of a trope unless it is further corroborated with footage from the game/a trailer of the movie/an excerpt of the book/et al. If it does not fit under Advertising Tropes, it should not be included.
- When writing an example, make sure you are noting the source. Because the work extant is not available yet, it is not your source of information. Your source is [Trailer A] or [Poster B], so your example should cite that: "In [Trailer A]…"
- Avoid weasel words. Don’t assume, don’t take for granted that something will happen and say "it’s a work in [franchise]! Naturally, it will have [Trope X]!" You may think that this is a guarantee, but there are Lying Creators and Plot Twists and last-minute changes all the time.
Edited by nombretomado on Jun 5th 2019 at 6:53:39 AM
First of all, thank you to Nombretomado. Administrivia.Creating A Work Page For An Upcoming Work is a much more granular, specific, and coherent policy than we've had in the past, and it clearly took a fair amount of thought and work to put it together.
Most of it seems very clear and comprehensible to me. However I would like to ask for clarification on one section.
Up until now my understanding of policy has been that tropes that take place entirely within a trailer/teaser/whatever can be added as long as it's made clear that they take place within that trailer/teaser/whatever. It is not acceptable to extrapolate that because a trope is present within a trailer, it will be present in the final work. Nor is it acceptable to assume that a trope that requires full knowledge of the narrative of the final work will be present in the final work because it is merely suggested by the trailer.
Most of the page seems to agree with that assessment, especially the part below the "What's a Good Idea?" header, which suggests sticking to things like Stock Phrases and Costume Tropes, which are easily identifiable as taking place entirely within a trailer without requiring knowledge of the full narrative of the final work.
However, the following passage is a little confusing to me:
- In covering pre-release works, we are only troping things presumed to be part of the finalized product and its advertising as advertising.Things presumed to be part of the finalized product includes trailers, teasers, gameplay footage, and text excerpts.
That could be read to mean that trailers, teasers, gameplay footage, and text excerpts are assumed to be lifted whole cloth from the final work without alteration, and that whatever is present in those excerpts will definitely be present in the final work. If that is indeed the intention, that would represent a major shift in policy.
I would also consider it inherently problematic, as Missing Trailer Scenes happen all the time, scenes can be re-edited and taken out of context to give the wrong impression, etc. Video games, in particular, often have trailers created from early builds of the game and prominently featuring cut scenes and other non-indicative footage to create an impression vastly different from what the final product turns out to be.
I feel like this is a point that could benefit from some additional clarification.
Thank you.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 5th 2019 at 7:04:24 AM
The Administrivia page seems to mostly be what we were pretty much settled on. I'm sorry that we had to put you through all this work, but I'm not sorry that we now have a concrete written policy, which should cut down on most of the arguments. (As High Crate said, it should be clarified that Never Trust a Trailer is a thing, but this doesn't mean everything in a trailer is inherently speculative.)
The other obvious question left unanswered is whether the line for a fact about the work or a trope being in the work (as opposed to only the trailers) is "100% confirmed, i.e. the work is released", which appears to be HighCrate's, etc. side, or "beyond a reasonable doubt", which is mine and bwburke's.
This difference actually matters, as my position would allow things such as art style and actors to be considered factual instead of speculation. Yes, these things can change, but the chance of it happening is vanishingly unlikely.
To clarify, when I say "actors" I mean "actors appearing in a trailer." Before a trailer/etc. releases, they're considered speculative; this also applies to actors being added/removed from an existing work (excluding those removed on account of being dead.)
(Also we're still in Projects Morgue at the moment.)
The intention is not to assume that those items are identical to the full, to-be-released work. They may troped as they are represented in that footage/excerpt, and should be identified as coming from that footage/excerpt.
- In covering pre-release works, we are only troping things presumed to be part of the finalized product and its advertising as advertising.Things presumed to be part of the finalized product includes trailers, teasers, gameplay footage, and text excerpts.
The verbiage between these lines is meant to strike the contrast of "descriptions of the work" (a synopsis describing an upcoming movie) vs. "representations of the work" (a trailer of an upcoming movie).
(Written with in mind, but seems like this may address as well.)
Edited by nombretomado on Jun 5th 2019 at 7:08:24 AM
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 5th 2019 at 10:34:03 AM
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