Big "Big Bad" clean-up project

Let's ask for a mod revert, because honestly that's infuriating. Was the page given the ZCE tag, though?

From a brief glance... no. In fact, none of the sub-page have tags about the Zero Context Examples. Which in hindsight, was a bit of an oopsie, especially after how many examples got commented out.

The only tags are telling people to put their entries in alphabetical order, so it's easy for someone to not get the memo about that. Maybe we should make a draft for a tag about making sure the entries have proper context?

Okay, I'm going to go hurry and tag the Animated Films page then... I put my blood, sweat and tears into cleaning up that one

Edit: IDK if a Big-Bad specific tag is necessary, I just used the typical tag for now.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 24th 2019 at 5:16:02 AM

I asked on ATT for a mod revert.

FYI: Question about Big Bad in Trope Description Improvement Drive: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13164954120A97000100&page=94#comment-2326

~Master N, I see your Big Bad TRS thread. Might you be interested in helping get this clean-up effort kick-started again?

Well... sort of. I do not want this to become like Complete Monster or (currently) Hate Sink, where a troper first has to post their example on a forum, because some tropers like me are shy (it took all my energy to post that). And I do not think that the examples are wrong, per se- just not elaborated on. I do want a standard of sorts, so that everyone can understand how a Big Bad entry should be written. My goal is for the entires to be written so that someone wholly unfamiliar with the work can understand who the Big Bad is and why they are causing the conflict.

For context, this arose because my Cross Ange entry on the main page got trimmed for being too lengthy, but to the point that it no longer adequately explained who Julio and Embryo are and what they are doing to cause the conflict. To hopefully avoid an Edit War, I came here. Thanks for your interest.

PS. If doing what was done to the Hate Sink page is needed, then I suppose sacrifices must be made, but I want to try everything else out first.

Edited by MasterN on Jun 1st 2019 at 8:58:03 AM

I can understand the concern, and I'm glad you agreed to stop by at least even if you don't have the energy to stick around. I don't think this will end up being a "discuss at the thread first" case, thankfully; the biggest issue with the trope is that it's a ZCE magnet, and so widely-used that enforcing the trope actually having context is near impossible. There's a reason this thread burned out so fast...it's a lot of work. But I don't think we need to try and keep such close tabs on the trope, more than we just need to buckle down and make sure people at least know what the Big Bad actually is.

You are welcome. Still cannot believe it took this long for this overdue effort, and for such a famous trope. And I have plenty of time.

As for the Cross Ange thing, here is the entry (before it was deleted)

Original (My) Entry:
For the first half, Prince-turned-Emperor Julio Misurugi is Princess Ange s primary enemy, being the one who turned her and other Norma into outcasts and enemies of the Misurugi Empire. In the second half, it becomes clear that Lord Embryo, the man who rules the world even above Julio, is responsible for all the danger in the plot, and stopping his Evil Plan is the Norma's first mission.

Edited Entry:
Julio Misurugi initially serves as the main antagonist, who turned her and other Norma into outcasts and enemies of the Misurugi Empire. Eventually, Embryo takes up this position after killing Julio during the Arsenal invasion.

I feel that the original entry was more descriptive, but what do you think?

Yeah, I prefer your version, the only tweak I'd make is that I'd make it two bullets (one for each character). What this thread discussed previously was the fact that examples need to explain how the character qualifies as a Big Bad, and your version does it much better.

I don't think Big Bad necessarily has to go the Complete Monster / Hate Sink route. The problem doesn't seem to be misuse, just rampant ZCEs.

Although we still haven't completely resolved our discussion about the supertrope/subtrope issue, but beyond that, yeah.

THANK YOU.

At last I have validation.

... but, uh, should I go and put that on the main Cross Ange page now, or wait for the troper to respond to the PM I sent them? I just want them to understand.

And as for splitting them up, the thing is that the Big Bad switch from Julio to Embryo happens halfway through one season, rather than Julio being the season 1 antagonist and Embryo the next season antagonist. If they were the Big Bads of separate seasons, I would have put them on separate bullets, but the show has only one season. Still, you be the judge.

Also, are you familiar with the anime? If you are not, but my version helped you understand how these two qualify, then I have done my job correctly.

Edited by MasterN on Jun 1st 2019 at 10:10:19 AM

Hrmm, I'd wait just a bit if I were you just to avoid any edit warring.

And yeah, not familiar with the work, so I definitely prefer your contextual style over the "revised" version.

Sorry. Was sleeping.

The troper has not contacted me yet. I will think about making the edit anyway and leaving an edit reason to explain my rationale.

So anyways, what do you think of my proposed guidelines in my Trope Repair Shop entry?

And where can I go to ask more people about this? I would like to receive more feedback and see if my opinions are shared by the majority of tropers or not.

Sorry. Was sleeping.

The troper has not contacted me yet. I will think about making the edit anyway and leaving an edit reason to explain my rationale.

So anyways, I have three questions:

1. What do you think of my proposed guidelines in my Trope Repair Shop entry?

2. Should I make two separate bullets, even if both characters serve as the Big Bad for the same season, just at different points? (A Sword Art Online entry on the Anime and Manga subpage did this, I think, so that is one point for your suggestion).

3. Where can I go to ask more people about this? I would like to receive more feedback and see if my opinions are shared by the majority of tropers or not.

Edited by MasterN on Jun 2nd 2019 at 1:31:35 AM

Bumping this because I want to take a stab at BigBad.Literature...and could use some assistance.

Sorry for never getting back to you! Must have been working or something... :/

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 29th 2019 at 9:10:09 AM

Sorry, was busy.

Also, more of a Japanophile/gamer, so my work will mainly be restricted to the Animanga/Video Game/Visual Novel sections.

On another related note, if I want to add examples from Manhwa, do I put them on the Animanga page or make a separate folder in the main page. I am leaning towards the latter to keep everything more organized.

Separate folder sounds good to me.

Howdy, everyone. I know it has been a while. Not sure if any of you will respond. But I will speak anyway.

So, a problem I have run into more often than I like is that my Big Bad entries on the work pages keep getting deleted because people cannot seem to agree whether it is a story trope or character trope. I believe it is both, and should therefore go on both pages. Is there any way I can get this across so I no longer have to worry about it?

The idea is that duplications are okay but not liked because of page space. Personally, I think it's a character trope (as the Big Bad is, well, a character archetype) and should go on the character page.

Yes, but that is why I usually write the main page version differently from the character page version. After all, the trope describes how a character influences the story by causing the conflict- hence, both a story and character trope. There are also several pages that have it on both, such as many Star Wars pages, and that write it differently.

To illustrate what I mean, here is the example that got me coming here: Colonel Hopkins from Sound of the Sky.

On the main page, this is written:

• Big Bad: Though he doesn’t appear until the last two episodes, Colonel Hopkins, the Demon of Vindt, is the main antagonist who wants to instigate war with the Roman Empire, plots to kill the Roman soldier Aisha for this purpose, and tries to take over the 1121st Platoon, pitting the heroines of the platoon against him. He is also responsible for the psychological issues of Noel, a recurring problem for her throughout the series, as he manipulated her into unknowingly unleashing a bio-weapon that killed millions.

Compare that to the character page:

• Big Bad: He is the one trying to restart the war, while the heroines want to keep the peace. He is also the one responsible for the psychological problems that Noel must deal with throughout the series.

Or, the Star Wars version. Let us use Tarkin from A New Hope as an example. On the main film page, this is written:

• Big Bad: Grand Moff Tarkin, who gives orders to Darth Vader and poses the biggest threat to the Rebels, due to being in command of the Death Star.

On his character folder:

• Big Bad: He's the main adversary Leia encounters in A New Hope. Vader takes orders from him in the movie and the Emperor's own role wasn't quite finalized yet, but even after the official Imperial pecking order was established in the following films, Tarkin is still effectively the main antagonist in A New Hope.

The first one must establish the character of the villain, but the second is in a folder/section that has already done so, and so can be shorter, focusing on the causing conflict part.

There is also an issue with keeping them only on character pages. Quite a bit of Big Bad characters are spoilers- for instance, their mere existence may be a spoiler, or they may be a character who was supposedly good but Evil All Along. Keeping it on the character page forces the reader to essentially spoil themselves in order to see who the Big Bad is (something I have fallen victim to before, sadly), but putting a differently-worded version on the main work page allows the example to tell the reader that the identity of the villain is a spoiler.

Compare this on the character page:

Big Bad: This character is actually the villain for x reason.

To this on the main page:

Big Bad: The one responsible for the conflict is Spoiler Villain #8, who did a bunch of spoilery stuff to cause the conflict.

For this reason, I think putting differently-worded versions on both pages is the best way to go, providing a better reading experience for everyone while avoiding accidentally giving away unwanted spoilers.

Edited by MasterN on Sep 16th 2019 at 11:02:32 AM

I'm against intentional duplication of examples, personally. It's bound to happen incidentally from time to time, and it's not the worst thing in the world when it does, but we shouldn't be going out of our way to write redundant entries.

Big Bad is a trope that refers to a character. It is not a thing that "happens"; it's a thing a character is. It's a character trope.

It should go on character pages, when available.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 17th 2019 at 6:38:28 AM

But it’s not redundant- it is written differently on both pages.

Also, the issues with spoilers I mentioned above.

Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about spoilers, personally. If the page isn't spoilers-off, then just mark it. If it is, then there's nothing to worry about. There's a lot of tropes that would be spoilers just by title alone that would still belong on character pages. If it gets that bad, then make the page spoilers-off, and that way you're not at fault for spoiling anybody.

Anyway, I'm not sure this discussion is really within this thread's territory. As long as the examples are properly written, I guess I don't personally care where they're put.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 17th 2019 at 2:11:28 PM