https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=70715&type=att
The ATT in question.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=64614&type=att
Previous ATT. Of note is the fact that the OP of this thread was temp-banned for edit warring over these names, so it bears repeating that do not make changes until there is a consensus.
Edit: Also, I'll remind everyone that the plot of the work is not part of our translation policy, since we've had some questionable edits on that topic before.
Edited by RallyBot2 on Dec 21st 2018 at 5:09:11 AM
What we ultimately want here at TvTropes is for there to be as little correcting and back and forth edit warring as possible. Translation differences often make that difficult, because two translations can come up with completely different names/spellings, and then we get two groups arguing over which is "correct".
So, let's be clear: TvTropes, as a site, does not care about which translation is more "correct" or closer to the author's intent. What we want is for it to be consistent, and for there to be as little back-and-forth edit warring regarding that as possible.
So we made a general rule that "most recent translation of the material has priority". But in some cases, like Dragon Ball, that isn't enough, due to there being multiple on-going translations. If we stuck to whichever one is most recently released at the moment, we'd be changing names every few years or even months.
So, here is my two cents: I feel like the most common translation should take priority. If the majority of fans who come here use those names, then we have less chance of edit wars over "correct" translations.
It is my belief that the Funimation English dub names are the most commonly known and used, as far as Dragon Ball's English-speaking fan community is concerned. It is this scheme we are currently going with.
We're always going to get new tropers who are going to spontaneously "correct" the translation we're using to the one they prefer, no matter which one we choose. That's inevitable. But I do think that by using the most commonly used translation, then we mitigate the clean-up to some degree.
Now this I agree with. This site is huge, and sometimes inconsistent terminology flies under the radar. Whichever scheme is decided on, we should be sure to use the decided terminology if we find an inconsistent example.
Edited by DarkHunter on Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:11:19 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You're right in that using the dub names would remove a large part of the potential headaches that this could cause, but OP is also right that our policy says we should be going with the sub.
Then again, we've ignored this same policy on a case-by-case basis in the past. Absolutely no one wants to rename the Detective Conan page, for example. It's just not worth the effort for something that no one, not even the most die-hard purists, actually wants to do.
As I say in the OP, the subs on the DV Ds and such are the most recent translation. The only time this is not the case is for episodes of Super which have not been released on DVD yet. Granted, this situation does slightly complicate things; Super is running using in-house Toei subtitles for the online simul-sub stream, which are then superseded by Funimation's in-house subtitles for the DV Ds and such, and between those two, the dub happens... But given how small a part of the franchise Super really is, and given the Toei-subbed version online is the primary version watched, since the dub is several months behind, it may be best to go with the Toei sub for Super, then fix things up when DV Ds are released. Granted in the time from when the dub airs to when the DV Ds are released, it would be incorrect by the letter of the rules, but the DV Ds are never far behind the TV run, and it's probably just easier to stick with what the Toei subs set out in the meantime, then fix things up when Simmons sets his standard for the DV Ds.
Though there is one wrinkle to this that might work in our favour: The Toei sub is most likely what Funimation's dub scripts are based off of, so we could consider the Toei sub and the Funi dub as one translation, then the situation of using the Toei subs for new terminology, then switching over when the DV Ds come out does make sense within the rules.
Really though, whatever we do, Super being an ongoing series is going to complicate this anyway; the Toei-subbed version goes out at the same time as the series airs in Japan, but the manga moves in and out of being ahead of the anime at any given time, and that goes up on Viz's site translated at the same time as the Japanese release. And then the dubbed anime is well behind both of these things, and the DV Ds are between a few weeks and a couple of months behind that. So, short of deciding to go with the manga — which wouldn't make all that much sense, frankly, as both the official sub and dub have come after the manga translation, throughout the entire history of Dragon Ball's English localisation history, and even if we decided to go against the grain and do the manga translation, you'll find very few fans who'll 100% get behind the manga's way as the definitive way, you'll find it's either dub or sub people tend to get behind.
In any case, Super is only the last couple of years of a 32-year-old franchise, and the only complication comes in material released in the last few months. I think hinging this decision on Super being slightly complicated to deal with would be a poor choice. Whether we go with sub or dub, any Super material from the online simul-sub would go against our main decision anyway, since they're not Simmons' subs.
As for the edit warring argument... Honestly, I can't see a way totally around edit warring. As I mentioned in the OP, at the very least because of Team Four Star's influence, any instances of "Frieza" are sure to be adjusted to "Freeza" constantly if we go with dub terms, and any changes made for the modern dubs like "Vegito" being phased out in favour of "Vegetto", or the Grand Elder no longer being called "Guru" will be fought against very strongly by the dub crowd. Remember, it's not "The Funimation dub" that got big in the USA in the '90s/'00s, it's the original Funimation dub from back then that got big. And while I still stand by it's not worth hinging things on Super, Super does present a problem since Funimation will sometimes change the terminology up for their dub compared to the Toei subs. Usually they keep it pretty much the same, but I've heard word of them going with "Geran" instead of "Jiren", IIRC they called one character "Kyabe", but the subs called him "Cabbe"...
Much as it's not a bad idea in theory, if we go with dub terminology, most people will probably be wanting to edit war it to fit in line with the first version that appeared in the English world, whether that's been deprecated by later work by the same team or not. So, it wouldn't solve the problem, just move it slightly and make it a little more subtle... Which arguably would be worse, since it's harder to notice and fix.
Also, one last thing: I don't think there's any real value in using the way the wiki already is as a reason to go a certain way. Status quo is not in fact god, and I think it does a disservice to that side of the argument to use the fact we're already mostly dub-centric in our terminology. There's still work to do if we do go with dub terminology, so I'm not convinced this is a road worth going down.
Edited by Robo4900 on Dec 23rd 2018 at 1:15:52 PM
I actually didn't mean to imply that we should keep the status quo because it's the status quo, though looking back I can see how that could be seen. I actually hate the "This is the way we've always done it, so we shouldn't change" argument quite strongly.
So, sorry about that.
I just mentioned it for some context, in case anyone was asking "Wait, what IS the current scheme our wiki is going with?"
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Hey, if this is made an official short-term project it'd be much easier to stop people from changing the names back; that is, of course, assuming we do go with the policy-over-popularity route.
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The fact remains that OP's rationale for using the sub names is not "latest translation". It's "Japanese purist, supported by latest translation". If we allow OP to win the argument, we've basically stated that the translation policy overrides common sense, and I don't think anyone (except OP) wants this.
The best option is probably just to rewrite the policy to account for these situations.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
No one is "winning the argument." Only names can win this debate.
~Dark Hunter — Ah. No, don't worry about it, I misunderstood. :)
Still, as I note, even the wiki's current scheme isn't consistent within itself. So, if we go with dub terminology, it will still need some cleanup.
~War Jay 77 — Exactly. If we come to a consensus now, we'll have something to point to as "A consensus was reached. This is what we're going with", rather than just reverting to whatever it was previously when people change the names.
~bwburke94 — False.
Let me make this clear: I grew up on this show's original airings in the UK. My childhood version of this show is the original Ocean dubs; so, that's the old dub terminology for Z, and the oddball Blue Water terminology for GT that predates both Funi's dub and the subs.
So, the version of the show that I hold most dear is the censored, cut-down, version of the first 67 episodes(Which was cut up into 53), and the Ocean-dubbed version of the rest that used the same scripts as Funimation's old Z in-house dub, which has never been available in any form since the original airings, with even the original Funimation DV Ds from the time containing different recordings of many lines, and all the modern DV Ds redubbing large portions of this material, usually using differing lines.
The reason I was originally edit warring, back when I was edit suspended, was because I assumed this wiki was aiming for being accurate, faithful, etc., so I assumed the sub terms, being the most faithful translation of the original, were the correct ones to use.
I was then edit suspended, the mods had a chat with me, and I came to understand that the official rule is "Most recent translation." Which happens to be the sub translation, but ultimately, accuracy to the original production does not matter in the slightest to the wiki.
So, I assure you, if the dub translation was the later translation, I would be arguing for that.
And, as ~Rally Bot 2 says, there is no "Winning the argument". Honestly, I don't care what the "Primary" version of Dragon Ball is, either among the wider fandom, or from TV Tropes' perspective; whether you watch the subs, the mainstream dub, the alternate dub, you're a fan of the show. The show, its characters, the story, etc. is what's important, and it's what people who enjoy Dragon Ball enjoy it for.
But, the fact remains that the official rule is to go with the latest translation. And the terminology on TV Tropes is both inconsistent within its own weird selection of terms, and does not go along with this rule. Even if we go with dub terms, there's cleanup to be done.
However, I don't see reason to either make an exception, or change the policy just because one case has a complex history. The entire point of the policy being "Latest translation takes priority" is to provide an easy, clear-cut solution in cases like this where there is many different sets of terms. Dragon Ball, a case where not only is there sub terms and dub terms, but also manga terms, modern dub terms, old dub terms, alternate dub terms, fringe dub terms* seems like a perfect example of why a rule like this exists, no?
Now, as far as common sense goes, you'll never get Dragon Ball fans to agree on terminology. NEVER. Go with dub terms, and — as I stated in my previous post — people will still be "correcting" everything to fit the old, deprecated terminology that Funimation has revised for their newer dubbing work, and Team Four Star's influence means people will constantly be changing "Frieza" to "Freeza". You'll see that in all current pages; while basically all the terminology is a mess of different dub terms, Freeza is consistently spelled in the way the manga and subs use, instead of the one spelling of his name that's always been consistent across all the dubs. I believe it's even mentioned in the DBZ Abridged trivia page that Kaiser Neko himself(Voice actor, writer, and editor for Team Four Star) has admitted to making this change in the wiki when he sees the Frieza spelling.
So, going with dubbed in an effort to avoid edit warring won't work.
And whether we go with subbed or dubbed, or even manga, people will always be edit warring it to their preferred terminology. Always.
So, I don't think it's as straightforward as you present it. If you want to present a legitimate reason why the dub terms would be better, go ahead. And in return, I will argue against you, because it's only fair that we discuss this and both sides of the argument are fairly argued for.
One thing I would argue that the subs would help with, outside of adhering to the policy, is consistency. The manga and the dubs all have consistency problems with their terminology. The subs, meanwhile, the only inconsistency is that much older DV Ds use "Burdock" instead of "Bardock". Meanwhile, the dubs are loaded up with inconsistency of terminology; "Vegito" vs "Vegetto", "Guru" vs Grand Elder, there's the scene in Kai where Goku refers to himself using his full name of "Son Goku", even though no other Funimation-dubbed material has ever acknowledged the "Son" family name...
.*The Speedy and Big Green dubs are what I refer to here. Utterly hilarious, but notable here because they use their own sets of terminology. And while many assume Speedy is a bootleg(Though with no real evidence either way on that), Big Green is most certainly an official dub produced by AB Groupe, using professional actors and recording equipment.
Edited by Robo4900 on Dec 26th 2018 at 10:35:51 AM
... Did I scare people off with my rambling?
Probably.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I wasn't scared off, just wasn't sure what else to add afterwards, so I was waiting for the conversation to move forward.
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In my view, it's the policy that's wrong. That's why I want the policy itself to change.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
The Unknown
mod note: this was wildly unnecessary.
Using the subs, while technically correct based on the policy, misses the point of why the policy exists. We want to use the most recent official translation meant for the general public, not the translation made to appease the small contingent of diehard purists who think dubs are always bad.
We're a general media wiki, not an anime wiki. Use common sense and stick with the dub.
Edited by nombretomado on Jan 4th 2019 at 6:17:58 AM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
@bwburke - What is your proposed change to the policy? Right now it's "most recent translation." How would you change it to be better?
@Karxrida - So your proposed policy change is "dub wins"? Do I have that right? That's a policy that you believe should be applied site-wide?
Edited by HighCrate on Jan 4th 2019 at 6:09:37 AM
Lost in Space
The principle, the intention behind the policy is: "Most generally recognized and accepted translation wins." So if there's a translation that 90% of fans all accept and use, that's the one we use, because we don't want to rock the boat. We prioritize official/licensed translations because those tend to be the ones that go in the most widely circulated media. Fan subs/dubs are inherently niche; they don't get seen or read by nearly as many people, unless there is no official translation at all.
Recency is a mixed bag, because what happens if there's one licensed translation that's existed for years that everyone recognizes and uses, and then the company licenses another, substantially different one? That's when we run into these sorts of arguments, and there isn't a perfect answer.
I dare say that most casual Western fans of DBZ know it from the long-running anime better than any other source, so that's the one we should ideally go with.
Edited by Fighteer on Jan 4th 2019 at 9:12:55 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Question: is this policy on an Administrivia page someplace that we can refer to? Do we know where and when and by whom it was decided? Stuff like that might be useful if we're going to start talking about the "intent" of the policy.
Edited by HighCrate on Jan 4th 2019 at 6:13:58 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Well, if the spirit of the rule is that it should be the most recognizable version, then I agree, we should stick with the dub, as it is what most visitors to this wiki will recognize.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
The most recognizable version to whom? It starts getting sticky when you've got different versions being distributed to different audiences, even within the English-speaking world. Or when you've got a version that's being distributed now that is recognizable to current fans, but those current fans are outnumbered by a silent majority of "legacy" fans who have nostalgia for an older translation but haven't kept up with the latest ones.
It's easy to say, "use common sense," but you know the saying. Common sense isn't.
Edited by HighCrate on Jan 4th 2019 at 6:23:21 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, you do make a good point...
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
To be clear, I'm not opposed to a policy that says, "when there's a version that is clearly more recognizable to more people than any other by a wide margin, we use that, even if it supersedes the usual 'most recent official translation' rule."
I just don't think that's the case with Dragon Ball. Fighteer tossed out that 90% figure, but I doubt that there's one single version of the Dragon Ball translation that is accepted and used by anywhere close to 90% of Dragon Ball fans.
Like, if you asked me what my personal preferred version is, it's actually a hodgepodge of about 3-4 different translations that I've experienced at various times over the years, picking one name from here and another from there. I'd venture to say that that's not atypical of the Dragon Ball fandom.
Edited by HighCrate on Jan 4th 2019 at 6:30:16 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
To be fair, I know nothing of Dragon Ball, so I wouldn't know which translation is the most famous.
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I like "most recent" because that's something factually based, whereas "used by 90% of fans" is something that is easily subject to selection bias, poor research, and blatant opinions. My own bias is to the translation that aired on [adult swim] about twenty years ago, but even a casual glance at other translation options makes me disappointed in the missed puns. I'm hardly in a position to ask every fan that goes to Otakon, and even if I did, it would fall afoul of the same "pull from multiple different translations" problem described above.
I'd say the best solution is for magical translators that convert everything to Galactic Standard, but that's not realistic. No matter what the end descision is, once it is reached, the Dragon Ball pages will need a short term projects thread to enforce on wicks. Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
So, right now the TV Tropes Dragon Ball pages use a mixture of different dub terms(Mostly based off the older dubs, even in cases where the given studio has superseded the terminology later on, such as "Vegito" instead of "Vegetto"), with some subtitle/manga terms thrown in(Mainly "Freeza").
So... Problem #1: Consistency. Regardless of what terminology we decide to use, there needs to be more of an effort at consistency. Thanks to Team Four Star's popular parody series, "Freeza" has entered the public consciousness quite heavily, even among those who devoutly stick to dub terms otherwise("Frieza" has always been the spelling used in dubbed media). And there's issues like Vegito vs Vegetto, which is a change instituted by Funimation for their more recent dubs, but still persists in its older form on many wikis and such to this day, including TV Tropes. So, whether we decide to go with sub, dub, or even manga terminology, we should make an effort to be consistent.
Problem #2: Clarity. TV Tropes is about the show, not a particular translation of the show(Specific tropes like Dub-Induced Plot Hole are supposed to deal with specific versions), so the TV Tropes pages on Dragon Ball should be readable and enjoyable for all kinds of fans of the franchise. The problem is, the dub terms are rather oddball, and if you're not primarily a dub-fan, you'll have trouble getting the hang of things, though the same problem exists in reverse if we go with sub or manga terms; the subs'/manga's Tsuru-Sen'nin is the dubs' Master Shen, the subs'/manga's Shen is the dubs' Hero, the subs' Yi Xing Long is the dubs' Syn Shenron AKA Omega Shenron, which has the additional wrinkle of the alternate dub which aired in the UK and Canada giving a name of Ii Shenron/Ii Shinron for that character... So, whatever terminology we use, there needs to be some greater clarification of the names. I personally suggest dropping notes on the more obtuse differences, along this line: "Ginyu Force member, Jheesenote is known for this.", or alternatively "Ginyu Force member, Jeicenote is known for this." I imagine the straightforward ones like Freeza vs Frieza, Boo vs Buu, Son Goku vs Goku, or Hildegarn vs Hirudegarn would be fine to just leave un-annotated; I'm sure anyone could figure those out. Edge-cases could then easily be covered with a decent Spell My Name With An S section.
Problem #3: The actual rules. The translation policy is that the most recent translation should be used as the basis for termonlogy in translated works. Dragon Ball's dubs and subs are an oddball. Because of the way production worked and continues to work, the dubs are produced fairly quickly so they can get the material on TV, then the subs are produced independently by Steve Simmons(Filled in for by Clyde Mandelin for the original Dragon Ball series, as Simmons was swamped with Z, GT, and other shows) for the home media releases. So, this means the subtitles use a different translation, which is a fact that persists to this day; one piece of evidence I like to cite is the narrator in Kai episode 98's dub claiming King Kai/Kaio was revived with the Dragon Balls, when the dialogue and visuals — and the subtitles and manga... Hell, even the original Z dub — make particular note across the later run, including the later Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT series, that the character is dead, much to his annoyance. There's a translation, separate from the subs that had this error in them, which this and other lines suggest the Kai dub was based off of.
So, the subtitles are the later translation. By the letter of the translation policy, we should base our terminology off of the subtitles. Since the subtitles and the manga use very similar — not identical, but very similar — terminology, there's an element of this being a healthy compromise between the various options, especially since many of the names are similar enough between versions that you'll be able to get most of what's going on without trouble(The dubs' Majin Buu vs the subs' Majin Boo and the manga's Djinn-Boo, the dubs' and manga's Burter vs the subs' Butta, the dubs' Master Roshi AKA the Turtle Hermit vs the subs' Muten Roshi AKA Kame-Sen'nin and the manga's Kame-Sen'nin AKA the Turtle Hermit, etc.). However, there is an argument to be made for the fact the dubs were what got big on TV in the USA in the '90s and '00s, so some argue(We discussed this briefly in Ask The Tropers) that this terminology is better to use.
I personally don't think this logic is bad, but I don't necessarily agree with it either. YuYu Hakusho bases its terminology off the sub and manga, despite its dub being shown right alongside Dragon Ball on Toonami in the USA, and similarly exposing probably most fans of the show to the dub first... And there's probably a whole discussion to go into about the fact these dubs only aired in the USA and Australia, with Canada, the UK, and any other territories that aired the show in English going with the alternate Canadian dubs, which often used its own, different set of terminology with some of the USA dub terms mixed in, which makes the whole situation a huge mess... So, I would say we should go with what the rules would point us to, and base the Dragon Ball page terminology off the subs...
Whatever answer we go for with this will ultimately be a compromise, as every fan of the franchise tends to feel pretty strongly about the version they consider their favourite, so there is no perfect solution. In my opinion, because of this nature of there being no perfect answer, this really does play into a case of just going with the letter of the translation policy. But I'm curious to hear what you think.
Apologies for the long post, and if I've come off a bit intense here. I'm given to understand I can come off a little strong online, and I think some of my previous contributions before the mods poked me and explained the rules on these things to me may have rubbed some people the wrong way; I assure you I approach this conversation, and all my interactions here, in good faith. Thank you for reading, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Edited by Robo4900 on Dec 21st 2018 at 12:50:14 PM