Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

Theologically debatable, depending on who you ask.

Theologically debatable by people who don't want to acknowledge the other guys. Mind you, there's plenty of Christian groups who think 99% of other Christians don't count.

Wel, there's an argument to be made that the doctrine of the Trinity alone differentiates Allah from Yahweh, and one of the main Muslim arguements against Christianity is that Christians follow a polytheistic religion rather than a monotheistic one.

That has more to do with the veneration of the Saints than the Trinity, though.

And it is actually a Protestant criticism of Catholicism that some Middle Eastern Muslims have adopted and apply to all of Christianity because they're about as up-to-date on Christian sectarian differences as most 'Western' Christians are on Muslim sectarian differences. (Probably because most Christians in the Middle East are Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.)

The Trinity is just a metaphor even in the Catholic Church. Albeit a very-very serious metaphor.

(12 years of Catholic school)

But if we're getting into "Jesus was God's avatar separates it from Judaism and Islam" then I think we're getting into No True Scotsman because we're getting into doctrine.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 20th 2019 at 6:37:56 AM

Since we started to talk about Villain Protagonist genre in the last page, i should mention that i think that the success of this depends on how much of a Necessary Evil you portray your protagonist as, how bad his opposition are and ho much of his fear and beliefs are justified and portrayed as correct.

The most common falling of Villain Protagonist genre (which leads to people supporting Villain Protagonist, justifying all of his actions and the work coming across as taking Villain Protagonist side) is when no matter how bad Villain Protagonist becomes, his enemies always portrayed as "worse than him" and all of his actions portrayed as Necessary Evil, which only he can make (as Thanos claimed (and his dumb fans supported this caim) in "Infinity Wars", "The hardest decisions can only be made by strongest of wills") and the work never take any time to show why and how Villain Protagonist is wrong and evil (it's either unwilling to do so, agrees with him or assumes the audience will figure it out itself, even though the work might not even show why he is so bad compared to his opposition).

I can't really speak for any other denomination, I'm a Lutheran, but the doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely more than just a metaphor, at least in Lutheranism. And the divinity of Jesus is kind of a major aspect of Christianity, dismissing it as simply doctrine and thus an unimportant distinction seems reductive to me. While the Abrahamic religions have many similarities, I don't it's wrong to still treat them as separate.

Also, I'm personally uncomfortable with treating them as the same religion because there's often an air of condescension to it. Like Jews and Muslims are just Christians who haven't realized it. Not saying that's the motive here, but I feel like it ignores the intricacies of each faith. Especially with Jewish people there's an unpleasant attitude from some Christians that they're just being stubborn when they don't want to convert and that there's no genuine reason for them to want to stay in the Jewish faith. The similarities between the Abrahamic religions are important but the differences are too.

For the record, the Trinity is not a metaphor, it’s actually part of doctrinal teachings, we got the Nicene Creed that endorses it and it was one of the fundamental corner stones to the development of the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

You know, most naughty people just get coal for Christmas. Heretics like you, on the other hand, had best be prepared to defend yourself when St. Nick comes down the chimney.

He's decked people for this exact thing before. Rest assured, he'll do it again.

Edited by RandomTroper#89235 on Oct 20th 2019 at 11:01:18 PM

To Very Vile Villian: I think using Thanos as a example is a bad idea because the story itself ultimately sides against him.

But yeah, Villain Protagonist stories made to sympathize with the VP work mainly because they put the VP in a Sympathetic P.O.V. by making them fight against worst villains. A thief trying to steal a valuable historical thing can be bad, but you don't care if they fight against a Terrorist group that wants to bomb a said museum in public hours. A Drug Lord can be made sympathetic if you make them fight against Neo Nazi Drug Lords. A Evil Overlord that wants to Take Over the World can be made sympathetic if you put them against a Omnicidal Maniac Empire, a revanchist monarch with a fondness for Cruel and Unusual Death can be made sympathetic if you put them against slavers, etc.

Stories where the Villain Protagonist is meant to be opossed usually do it by either showing clearly that the VP has no redeeming traits and/or with the presence of a Hero Antagonist. Obviously even that can backfire, see how Light Yagami from Death Note still has tons of fans rooting for him or calling him morally gray even thought the story bends itself to show that Light is a megalomaniac jackass.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 20th 2019 at 11:37:19 AM

I wonder what you consider a metaphor because the Trinity is a way of explaining the Triune nature of a single God.

If you acknowledge the Triune nature of God I don't know why you'd insist the Trinity is just a metaphor. The doctrine of the Trinity doesn't mean that you believe in three separate gods, it means you believe there is one God in three persons.

We have a religion and mythology thread.

People, who side with Light Yagami are usually those, who love "Cowboy Cop" and "Vigilante" type of characters and agree with his policies (not helped that apparently, as some tropes here say, the director of the anime adaptation also agreed with Light), hell they maybe even be pro-fascist, as they support Light in his efforts to become a "God". Also, if you make Villain Protagonist a ruler, there is a risk that he will gather a cult of Neo-Nazis or pro-fascist fans (due to a nature of trope of "Evil, but reasonable and effective MC ruler", which nearly all of Villain Protagonist stories, that make their VP a ruler, follow, as they don't really have the will to make their VP anything but effective and reasonable), like 100% guaranteed.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Oct 20th 2019 at 8:34:00 PM

I knew that the "moral ambiguity" discussion surrounding Death Note was big back in its heyday in the mid to late 2000's, but looking back on it I find that honestly absurd because Light is such an unfathomably shitty, self-aggrandizing person that someone like L looks downright saintly, just by virtue of the fact that he has even the mildest respect towards other people and has enough self-awareness to admit he has flaws and makes mistakes, despite the immoral things he does in order to try and catch Kira.

Ironically, the biggest case of Authoritarian fans that I've seen is a political paradox. Social Progressive Liberals and even some socialists supporting a character that's meant to be a criticism to American Imperialism, thought that's likely because unlike other embodiments of American Imperialism, said character had redeeming traits and well meaning goals.

Yeah, it's pretty absurd.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 20th 2019 at 12:51:04 PM

Well, when your first kills are a child kidnapper and attempted rapist, people are going to fucking cheer for the character that kills them. :V

I watched the show right up until he tried to kill L. Then I was like, "So he's an evil asshole. Got it."

I've watched the movies, though.

I thing Tobas said best that people agree with Kira mission but not with the man, and in fact there is a critic in how making light a ranging jackass was a narrative trick to side against him.

Is intersting that when he lost the book for a while he turn to be a pretty alright person.

The thing is that only someone like Light would consider using the Death Note like that. N isn't that great a person either, but it's pretty clear we're more or less supposed to agree with him when he calls out Light's god complex.

"No. You're just a murderer, Light Yagami, and this notebook is the deadliest weapon in the history of mankind. You yielded to the power of the Shinigami and the notebook and you have confused yourself with a god. In the end, you're nothing more than a crazy serial killer. That's all you are. Nothing more, and nothing less."

A point is made that a normal person would have either gotten rid of the Death Note after realizing what it did, or used it for personal gain. Not go on a power trip and set themselves up as a god bringing judgement on the world.

Edited by M84 on Oct 21st 2019 at 4:31:21 PM

Sure, is god complex is annoying but I can get why people would use it to kill criminals, is a temtping philosophy to get rid of evil in that way.

It's also telling that Light's initial reaction to finding out what the Note did was guilt and horror. He's so horrified that he's become a murderer at first. Sadly, he doesn't react the way a normal guilt-ridden person would and burn the damn thing (which actually would have erased his memories of using it and freed him of the guilt). Instead he convinces himself that he's righteous and an avenging deity bringing justice to the world.

Edited by M84 on Oct 21st 2019 at 4:32:36 PM

It's also a very childish view of Good vs. Evil, crime, and justice. Light, after all, is killing all criminals and acting only on information he's acquired from the justice system. Which assumes an infallible system that has to exist for him to be able to kill anyone.

Mind you, Light wouldn't care about the collateral damage of however many innocents or wrongly convicted are killed.

To add to N's note, if you had the Death Note you might use it to kill Osama Bin Ladin (were he still alive) or a dictator or two you think is pure evil. However, it takes a special kind of nuts to want to devote yourself to killing day in and day out every day like Stalin.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 21st 2019 at 1:37:48 AM

The clearest sign of how far he's gone is when Lind L. Tailor posing as L calls out Kira as a murderer. Light is so angry he immediately writes Lind's name in the Note.

Oh sure, he is nut about it, but again a kinda point of the manga is how much of a asshole yagami is compare with the moraly ambiguous idea of killing crimials

It dosent help he start is murding spree like a maniac, drawing atention of L.