Netflix's The Dragon Prince

^^ Btw, you should consider that, if all 7 seasons are done and each is 9 episodes, The Dragon Prince would reach a total of 63 episodes, 2 more than Avatar. Basically it's the same length but divided for less episodes per season. But I agree that Dragon Prince tries to introduce more per episode than Avatar. It could help if authors decided to put more than 9 episodes per season.

That might be true, but it seems like they were unsure that the show was going to be renewed beyond season 3, and tried to resolve as much as they could (aside from Aaravos) by the end of that season. That might be why they're supposedly breaking up Callum and Reyla. They put them together because they thought the show was ending, but now that it isn't they feel the need to break them up.

Well thats dissapointing if true. I genuenly dont understand why so many writers seem so averse to even attempt to write main characters in an active relationship.

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Jun 11th 2022 at 4:05:55 PM

[Laughs in Lumity]

Because having the main characters in a relationship is considered by many something of a Dead Horse Trope.

Though personally I'm not adverse to that trope, and I think Callum/Rayla was handled egregiously

I suspect its more because the Will They or Won't They? trope has always been popular, and a safe bet to keep viewers hooked. That, and they're probably afraid of a Shipping Bed Death reaction.

Some writers seem deathly afraid of making a stable relationship (or simply don't know how to write one) which is why most couples in fiction are either dysfunctional, going through a rough patch or they don't get together till the very end.

Like I could even see it leading to some solid character work if you commited to the idea that the relationship just didnt work out. But usually stuff like this only leads to a season of treading water just to get the characters more or less to the exact same place as before the breakup.

Yeah, it's like Cross referenced. Any main ship getting together before the end is super rare, because "everyone knows" that Will They or Won't They? Unresolved Sexual Tension is a major draw. Lumity proves that it's certainly possible to make it work, though.

And I really hope they don't break them up just for the drama. Now, a rough patch, sure, I could accept. If you want a relationship to be central to your story, you have to do something to make it interesting (and maybe you feel the need to explain why two teenagers who are alone together aren't making out at every opportunity). Just don't try to convince us there's a chance of them breaking up for real, because that seems cruel.

Of course, the other option is to make it so that the relationship isn't central to the story. For Lumity, almost none of the plots revolve around the pairing even after they're together. They blush a bit whenever they say the word "girlfriend," but for the most part the plot didn't need them to be together to function. Which is absolutely fine. The show is not about their relationship, they're just two characters who happen to be in a relationship.

I suspect that if that show hadn't had its episodes cut, they probably would have had at least one episode dedicated to the relationship, if not more. They just didn't have the time for it.

As for Dragon Prince, I'm pretty sure they said that season 4 will start with Callum and Rayla already broken up. The breakup happens off screen. Rayla leaves in the middle of the night on Callum's birthday and leaves him a note. I think someone else in this thread linked an AMA reddit thread where they said that. I guess its possible plans might have changed since they said that.

Edit: Now I wonder if I should have posted this. It is possible that this stuff won't be as bad as it sounds in context. It is also possible, like I said, that they might change how this plays out. That being said, if it really is as bad as it sounds, that could put me off from coming back to this series.

Edited by Neveratall on Jun 11th 2022 at 1:12:36 PM

You did spoiler the entry so that's fine. I concur with Discar's point, I simply hope it will be handled properly and not put there for the sake of drama.

• My first point remains. The series seems like it tries to introduce so much in terms of characters, backstory and plots only to solve them rather quickly, and at the end of the day it feels kinda underwhelming.
• Aesthetically the series is amazing. Really that damned framerate in the first season was the only thing that ruined it. Everything, backgrounds and characters are drawn perfectly.
• A thing that I personally appreciated is how cultural and ethnic diversity was handled: rather than having the usual two or three standard Fantasy Counterpart Culture that pop up in fantasy every time, it's enstablished that humans mixed themselves to a point that whatever ethnic division existed before, it no longer makes sense. And many characters are "racially ambiguous".
• I loved how certain tropes and conventions were subverted in creative ways: my favourite is how both Claudia and Soren were set-up as "misguised guys on the villain's side who learn the truth and become good guys" a la Zuko, but then only Soren has a Heel–Face Turn, while Claudia gets even worse.
• I also liked how morally ambiguous characters are handled creatively. Claudia uses Dark Magic, remains on her father's side until the end, but it's made it clear that she's not a malicious person on herself, and she's genuinely convinced she's doing what's right. Similarly Viren subverts a bit the tropes of "says to act for the good of all but is actually selfish" or "villain who does awful things but has a Freudian Excuse". He clearly has some Ambiguous Disorder. He's without a doubt arrogant, ambitious and villainous, but it's clear that in his twisted mind he's genuinely convinced he's the good guy. As for Elves, they're set up as "superior race who has good reasons to hate humans but take it too far", but then not only that "too far" goes beyond a justifiable point, it's also made clear that Elves and Dragons aren't without faults. They're not just responsable for perpetuating the cycle of hate through their sheer arrogance, they had a role in starting it to begin with.
• The above doesn't apply to this guy◊. He's an asshole and can go fuck himself.
• At the very ending: characterizing Zubeia as something of a Token Heroic Orc was clearly done for the sake of Earn Your Happy Ending and solving plot as better as possible, but it's really both heartwarming and refreshing, because it's realistic that at least one Dragon isn't all bent on hating humans and loosing their head when they see one, and actually wants to be reasonable.
• My personal take for Dark Magic: lots of people argue that it's a case of Designated Evil because they don't see killing living beings for magical purposes as worse than killing living beings for food/resources purposes. But learning other Magic schools, while requiring lots time and effort, ultimately grants the same possibilities of Dark Magic, but available at will and without the need of hurting other creatures. From an Elvish/Draconic point of view, Dark Magic is undoubtedly evil because it's a shortcut for those who just have no patience to learn, and can't get over the fact that they're not as powerful as they would like. Although there are humans who use Dark Magic for selfless purposes, the fact remains that it's not morally right, and humans doing so should at least admit that they're doing so because they're desperate, instead of lying to themselves that there's nothing wrong to begin with. In an ideal world, Elves and Dragons shouldn't have left humans to rot, so humans' actions are indeed understandable. Which is not the same as nothing wrong with it.
• Aaravos be like this face◊ but then this voice.
• As for Rayla. SCO'LANDFOREVER.

Final rate: very good series, not denying that. But creators, as talented as they are, don't have the same finesse of the Bryke duo. There's still improvement to be done.

Edited by gc10 on Jun 12th 2022 at 2:56:12 PM

Humans, apart from Caelum for as of yet unexplained reasons, cannot learn magic as far as we know. Dark Magic is their only option.

That being said, we don't know if they only can't use magic because it's fundamentally something humans can't do or if humans have only been told they can't learn magic (presumably by elves and dragons trying to keep them as second-class citizens) and no one's tried. Even Caelum needed a traumatic experience with Dark Magic before being able to use other magic (without the use of a tool).

It's also the presentation of the magic, arguably. In the Warcraft movie, just for an example that quickly came to mind, we see how torturous using Fel magic is to the living beings it consumes. We see the victims writhing in pain, we see Gul'dan casually torturing a human for no reason except that he can, we see how the land is left a shell of itself through the use of Fel. Because it's a kids show, we only get brief looks at how Dark Magic works.

Actually, Claudia's deer scene was almost flat out ripped from the Warcraft movie but the presentation in each was way different. Gul'dan rips the life from a deer and we see it's in pain and suffering as it dies to save Go'el's life. We don't get to see any of the deer, we just see the aftermath in The Dragon Prince. And sure, we know what happened, but there's some doubt as to whether that deer suffered or not that didn't exist in Warcraft.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 13th 2022 at 3:53:40 AM

I believe the idea is that humans are not born in tune with the Primal Sources like elves and dragons no one thinks such a thing is really possible.

And so man uses dark magic which drains the primal energies from living creatures, which to the Elves and Dragons who live closer in tune with nature see as a profane act that makes a mockery of true magic.

Of course there is a sense are humans so wrong for seeking to find a way to use magic themselves after being oppressed and seen as lesser for their lack of natural ability and on the flip side, can humans who do not live in harmony with the world around them be trusted to not abuse the world and destroy the land and its inhabitants for spell food.

Edited by lycropath on Jun 13th 2022 at 4:49:07 AM

It doesn't help that humanity has already driven the unicorns to extinction by hunting them down for Dark Magic fuel. After unicorns aided humanity by giving them Primal Stones and teaching them the dragons' language.

The Dragons and Elves' fear of Dark Magic is an existential one — they think they could be next.

Edited by M84 on Jun 13th 2022 at 9:44:52 PM

Human dark mages do tend to have the extremely bad habit of looking at living, thinking creatures as shopping lists.

The last breath of a dying woman is just another juicy spellfood.

Though it should be mentioned that Dark Magic isn't a human thing only. It was something taught to them by Aaravos. He seems to have been the one to encourage humans to think this way, being the Sauron to their Numenor.

Edited by M84 on Jun 13th 2022 at 11:58:19 PM

@Phi Sat:

I'm personally inclined to believe that, theoretically, all humans could learn non-Dark Magic. Extremely difficult, but not absolutely impossible. I'd really dislike if creators decided to play The Chosen One straight on Callum. It would be better if it was enstablished that he got to the point he got because of his patience, open mind and his desire to break the cycle of hate and understand elvish customs. After all, for 3 seasons he and Ezran were practically the only humans to have positive relationships with Elves. Since that's no longer the case after season 3, I think it would be fitting to have other humans learning non-Dark Magic.

Also, Claudia kidnapped an Adoraburr to use for Dark Magic, how can anyone say that's Designated Evil???

He's not The Chosen One but he does have an unusual talent for learning magic. The Chosen One isn't a catch-all term for someone who has The Gift.

And hey, it's not like it's unrealistic. Some people really are just better at some things than others.

Anyway, it's less that humans cannot learn Primal magic at all. It's just that they are born without a natural connection to a Primal Source unlike the other species. So they have to create a connection to a Primal Source somehow. Callum managed it but it was an extremely difficult process even for a prodigy like himself.

The only other person who seems to have pulled off a similar feat is Aaravos, who is The Archmage. He forged connections to all of the Primal Sources besides the one he was born with, Star Magic.

Edited by M84 on Jun 14th 2022 at 9:16:17 PM

Fair point. Though I'd still think a break also from "the protagonist turns out to be more talented than usual" would be refreshing. Just having a single or two human characters besides Callum enstablishing a connection would do.

How often do you actually see that in a protagonist? And how often is it actually a problem for said story?

For me, whether a protagonist is "gifted" or not doesn't matter as long as the protagonist is still an interesting character with personality.

Edited by M84 on Jun 14th 2022 at 10:14:52 PM

That would still be the protagonist being more talented than the vast majority of people who have ever lived.

Edited by LSBK on Jun 14th 2022 at 9:17:42 AM

It's only really a problem if the protagonist is so talented that they are an Invincible Hero who is never seriously threatened or challenged, meaning the whole thing is a blatant Power Fantasy. And even that can still work if the writing is good enough.

Callum is very much not an Invincible Hero. Especially since Aarvaros is in the picture.

Edited by M84 on Jun 14th 2022 at 10:18:11 PM

Yeah, you can definitely do it wrong, but to be frank I've never gotten the whole pushback against "why is the protagonist special" thing. If they aren't special in some way, it just brings up the more pertinent question of "why are they even the protagonist"?

Edited by LSBK on Jun 14th 2022 at 9:30:57 AM

It's not like Badass Normal and The Unchosen One haven't also been done to death by this point too.

Not every protagonist has to Batman or Han Solo or something.

Edited by M84 on Jun 14th 2022 at 10:25:08 PM