Avengers Endgame spoiler thread

Got 'd about Mjölnir missing. (talk about a lame page topper...)

But otherwise, yeah, the 2012 and 2014 timelines are very messed up. Might make some interesting fanfics. I wonder if even the movies might start playing with travel between alternate universes...

Concerning Steve staying in the past, my guess would be that he somehow managed to return to the "main" timeline after Peggy's death. He could have lived his whole life with her, then, once she died, travelled back to when he first decided to stay with her. It is likely the super serum slows down Steve's aging as well, so he might be able to take the slow path twice and not look the worse for wear.
Either that, or he did not spend his whole life with her, only a few years, taking care of not disturbing anything in the timeline. After all, he knows most things are going to turn out all right.

Edited by C105 on Apr 26th 2019 at 11:06:01 AM

Okay, time to talk about scenes that I really, really loved, instead of how f@!@#$%ing confusing time travel is.

• Hawkeye proving that he isn't useless by avoiding and killing all of those Outriders and keeping the Infinity Gauntlet safe.
• Nebula not just convincing past Gamora to defect, but also killing her past self.
• Captain Marvel. Everything having to do with Captain Marvel, but especially her fight with Thanos. He headbutts her and it does nothing. The only way he is able to defeat her (for a few minutes) is by fighting dirty and putting the Power Stone on his other hand.
• Ant-Man becoming Giant Man and stepping on bad guys. And then stepping on Leviathans.
• "Avengers...assemble!" Cue massive Avengers army. Goddamn.
• Captain America wielding Mjolnir! Thor laughing and shouting "I knew it!"
• Cap and Thor fighting back to back and then switching hammers.
• I love that, basically, the last half of the giant battle is a game of keepaway from Thanos.
• All of the female heroes (aside from Black Widow) teaming up in the final battle. Pandering? Yes. Awesome? Also yes. And it really goes to show you that we really do need an all female Avengers movie.

Things that suck:

• Black Widow was the only main Avenger who did not get to participate in that final battle.
• My theory that each of the six main Avengers would wield one of the Infinity Stones was wrong.

Things I still don't understand:

• Where did Valkyrie get that Pegasus?

Theory:

• Both Black Widow and Gamora are still alive inside the Soul Stone. In the comics, there's an entire Soul World. I wonder if Thanos could even destroy the Soul Stone, since it's so different from the rest? Maybe it still exists and so both those characters could return?

Edited by alliterator on Apr 26th 2019 at 2:16:03 AM

There might have been a few Pegasii left on Asgard that got evacuated along with the rest of the population. Or they originate off world and she had time to go and get one offscreen. And Rule of Cool, of course.

Edited by C105 on Apr 26th 2019 at 11:18:51 AM

Oh, two more things I liked:

• Thor making Valkyrie the ruler of New Asgard. It really was obvious that Thor never wanted to be a ruler and liked having adventures instead.
• If you notice New Asgard is in Tonberg, Norway, the same town where the Red Skull first found the Tesseract.
• Steve giving the shield to Sam, instead of Bucky. Steve knows that Sam deserves it and, even though it first went to Bucky in the comics, it definitely should go to Sam in the MCU. (Bucky has his own life that he needs to figure out.)
• Which basically means we have Old Man Rogers handing down the shield to Sam after he already said "Hail Hydra." Man, I think the writers love taking the piss out of the comics sometimes.

Yeah I pretty much kind of missed a huge chunk of the battle because I kept wondering where the hell the Pegasus was coming from.

But I stand corrected.I actually missed the fact that Cap left with the hammer, too. So if we assume that Cap brought back the stones and the hammer and that small conversations didn't change the timeline (meaning if they diverged they also reconnected shortly after if that makes sense, we now have four time-lines, counting the one for Ao S.

1. The original timeline in which the Ao S managed to save earth so that the Avengers cold be around to reverse the snap five years later.

2. The one in which reality diverged at whatever point Cap decided to insert himself - which I kind of assume would be immediately at the end of WWII, because I would HATE anything else. If he goes back to Peggy he at least should be on time for their dance. Naturally THAT would create a situation in which Cap lived his live with Peggy and died while a second self of him is either still buried under the ice or will eventually be found.

3. The one which diverged in 2012 (which is kind of the nexus point of the MCU anyway). In this reality Loki escaped with the space stone (would he bring it to thanos? Who knows…), hence he never replaced Odin meaning that in this reality Asgard might still exist. Also in this timeline Steve is now aware that Bucky is alive, the is some Shield/Hydra confusion and Tony might replace his arc reactor earlier after this little shock.

4. The one which diverged in 2014, where Thanos, Gamora and Nebula plus their whole army left the timeline. Meaning in this reality, Peter Quill got the stone and most likely sold it without a hitch, the Got G never became a thing and Yondu is most likely still alive, as is the original Groot. You know, in this reality the collector might now be busy collecting the stones.

Are we sure that the movie will continue in the current time-line and not in one of the alternative ones? Or that the TV shows won't cover any of the alternative time lines?

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 26th 2019 at 2:37:43 AM

I think that the movies or TV shows going with any of the alternate timelines would be way too confusing, especially for people who haven't seen Endgame. Although it is a way to bring Loki back to life (even though I prefer getting Kid Loki).

So far Marvel/Disney had been pretty tight-lipped about what the future holds. I hope that now the movie is released we will get some more information. There are a few upcoming films now listed on The Other Wiki (including a Black Widow prequel, which would be a great opportunity to see the character again).

But those alternate timelines are sure interesting opportunities for new series or films. I just hope the filmmakers do not consider that the Avengers page is now turned and that everything is a clean slate.

Edited by C105 on Apr 26th 2019 at 11:43:50 AM

The more I think about it, the more I want a third Ant-Man film so that we can see more of 16-year-old Cassie and what went down during the five year timeskip. It would be very interesting to see how she coped, then see how she copes getting her father back and if there is any resentment or repercussions. They could even call it Ant-Man, the Wasp, and Stinger or something like that.

Honestly, they really killed my desire for a Black Widow movie now. I never wanted it to be a prequel in the first place, but not it is even more pointless.

My idea of how to do a Black Widow movie: the entire thing appears to be a prequel...until Natasha starts remembering stuff from the future and she realizes that she's actually dead and inside the Soul Stone and just reliving her past. Then she breaks out of the Soul Stone.

I always assumed that the third Ant-man movie would be called Ant-man, The Wasp and The Stinger.

I also wonder if maybe Paxton raised her on his own...

I would like that…. or she breaks out of it and when she does, there is Cap standing there, having just brought back the stone. And then he help her to travel back into her reality. In any case, I want some proper send-off for her. It just didn't feel right that she wasn't honoured at all.

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 26th 2019 at 3:18:04 AM

I just liked how good Thanos looked in the final fight, while still giving awesome moments to the other heroes.

I dont know why people think 2012 Cap thinks Bucky is still alive. As far as he knows, the person who told him that, was Loki. God of Deception and lies, remember?

Edited by qwigly on Apr 26th 2019 at 5:11:38 AM

Three reasons. For one Once all is said and done they will most likely check the security feeds and figure out that there was a second cap walking around at the same time as Loki was still in custody. Second, even if they don't do it, once Cap has some time to truly think about it he will realize that "loki" didn't fight like "loki" but fought like him. And third, imagine you are cap and still in the "I have lost everything" mood...wouldn't you want to at least look into it? Just in case?

For the first point, Loki was able to make multiple versions of himself appearing in public, so a duplicate Captain America would not seem out of the question. I mean, if you see two version of the same person, and happen to have at the same time a master of illusion around, will you even consider there could be another explanation, especially one as far-fetched as time travel? And for the third point, even if Cap decided to go searching for Bucky... where would he start? Also, one of Loki's shtick during the Avengers is people's heads. Trying to torture Cap by giving him false hopes would be perfectly in line with what he does.

Everybody, now that we've seen Endgame, and after I had rewatched past MCU scenes on YouTube, I would like to ask which previous MCU scene becomes soul-crushingly tearjerking after knowing what will come in the future?

For me, it's everything at the very start, in Iron Man. Let's list it: cheeseburgers, Yinsen Ho's Famous Last Words warning Stark not to waste his life, Pepper's warning to Tony ("You're going to kill yourself, Tony. I'm not going to be a part of it.") and Tony Stark's arc reactor flickering to life after being hit by the big arc reactor explosion, which was a reversal to his arc reactor sputtering out in his last film.

But the biggest one out of all those was four simple words: "I. Am. Iron Man." ^note By the way, those emojis represent Rhodey, Peter and Pepper.

Edited by The12thDoctor on Apr 26th 2019 at 10:42:49 PM

To me it's a fitting one. If you keep in mind Tony's arc in Iron Man 3, Avengers: Age of Ultron, Captain America: Civil War he's a guy who is obsessed and fixated with the future, and making decisions unilaterally on the behalf of everyone. That he should die because Dr. Strange actually saw the future and knew that Thanos' defeat needed Tony's death and Strange acted to make sure that came to pass. I mean right before Tony is about to snap, or before he's going to Thanos to make the Gauntlet switch he looks at Strange, and Stephen raises his index finger signalling yep the one timeline where Thanos lost depended on this scenario happening. It's cruel but it's also fitting. Tony's final end doesn't absolve or negate the stuff he did, and his fate is a warning to all those who try and decide in favor of the future over the present.

Natasha interacting with Clint's children in Age of Ultron. She will never get to see them again or even know they were brought back to existence, and the kids will learn Auntie Nat (don't remember the exact nickname they had for her) died saving them.

I love it that Strange's signalling happened right after Carol got "taken down", as if injecting a new hope.

Stark: "Oh shit, not even Carol managed to defeat him. We're fucking doomed."

Strange, non-verbally: "On the contrary; this means we are passing the point of no-return. This is the timeline, Tony. Now just go get him!"

Why are we using spoiler tags in a spoiler thread?

While there will always be that one idiot who'll gripe about it, but come on don't listen to that person. lol

> Why are we using spoiler tags in a spoiler thread?

In case someone sees Avengers and assumes it''s not the spoiler thread,better safe then sorry

Frankly mostly because I felt it was kind of unfair to freely post spoilers when it only took another day or two until the other countries would get it too. Always possible that someone accidentally ends up here or just wants some basic information. I intended to wait until the weekend is over and then discard the spoiler tags altogether.

imagine if someone posted their spoilers unmarked in the wrong thread.

instant ban i imagine

The "girl power" scene was cheesy as all hell, but I loved it anyway. And I'm starting to get the impression that Joe Russo is trying to break into acting.

Spoilers and plot concerns raised in order of story importance, with the most important concerns being LAST.

0.5. Confirming what I and others suspected, Okoye was rather rudely and unnecessarily left out of the main (second act) plot, for no reason at all. Even Carol Danvers got a reason why she wasn't present. Both were included in promotional material pretty much just to exploit minority representation.

1. The sound in the end credits was the direct sound file of Tony hammering in the Cave with the Scraps in the first Iron Man. Not a look forward, but a reminder of the past.

2. A concern I raised even before seeing the movie: So how old is everyone who was gone for 5 years supposed to be? What happens if someone, like for example the film's well-meaning-but-still-token gay character played by Joe Russo had that post-snap date and hit it off and the original partner came back? And whoever was in the Infinity War post-credits helicopter that wasn't snapped, or who was in a similarly dependent situation, still died. What if someone who was Snapped was on a planet that was hit by a meteor or something?

3. Black Widow can't be brought back, even after Cap returns the Soul Stone to Red Skull (which would be an awkward conversation), because it violates the life for a life trade the Stone mandates, and her personal choice, and Cap wouldn't do that.

4. Loki taking the Space Stone is potentially an unresolved major split in the timeline that may change depending on how Cap returned the Mind Stone and/or took the slow path back, but...

5. The Power Stone time heist also leaves the BIGGEST major issue - the plan, including Banner and the Ancient One's amendment, hinges on the Stones being returned without anyone who cares missing them. Cap could return the Time, Soul, and Space stones without issue. Returning the Aether and hammer leaves a confused Natalie Portman and potentially a confused Original!Thor that Dude!Thor took Mjolnir from. Returning the Mind Stone changes the entire Hydra storyline that Cap himself just changed by taking it, and that has a lot of issues. I don't know if he could've taken it in the first place without causing a split. But CAN Cap return the Power Stone at all? Quill can't get knocked out by Rhodes and Nebula because Korath the Pursuer would capture him and change history GOTG onwards. He can't send Nebula "back to the future" to prevent that weird duality glitch, or change details of the first Time Heist, even by going back and telling that team to just take the Stones post-Snap and pre-destruction when Thanos appears on his farm, because then Past!Thanos and his army doesn't come forward, and Tony doesn't do the final snap and die... but if 2014!Thanos comes forward, then Thanos doesn't do the FIRST Snap, but we know the first Snap still happened and it's not just that a "Snapless" timeline slid over the Prime timeline because Spider-Man basically said the Soul Dimension exists.
This last spoiler is real wibbly-wobbly timey wimey. The answer is that the first Time Heist should've targeted Thanos on his Farm Planet after the Snap but before he destroyed the stones, then immediately undone the Snap, but that's not the route the film makes possible. As far as I can see, the film wrote itself into a scenario with no actually workable solution, in order to have a bigger final battle and a touching death.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Apr 26th 2019 at 9:28:24 AM