Misused: Added Alliterative Appeal

Added Alliterative Appeal - It's an index of tropes, but I've seen it mainly used for any kind of alliterative phrasing.

As the previous Repair calls were just locked because of clocks running out, I'll try to cut to the chase:

Suggesting creation of Allterative Trope Titles and move the trope name index of what is currently AAA over there. Yes or no?

edited 5th Jun '17 4:56:51 PM by Malady

Most tropers use AAA like my TLP, Alliterative Phrasing, where any use of alliteration in characters' speech is said to be AAA.

But, AAA doesn't fit that use, 'cause the page doesn't fit that at all.

So to solve that inconsistency, I want to move AAA to something with a clearer title and turn AAA into what people think it is, or at least just a disambiguation of the various kinds of Alliteration tropes, instead of the "disambig + index of trope names that are alliterative" it currently is.

I would turn the current content of AAA into a Just for Fun page (moving wicks of applicable Trope Titles can be done with a simple search function) and then change the trope page to what Malady started under Alliteratve Phrasing.

Is there a reason not to use this page for Malady's TLP and to move the index to Alliterative Trope Names?

(~Sean Murray I may also be interested in this TRS)

Thanks for reaching out to me about this.

I'd be happy to lend support to any of these suggestions to shift/narrow the focus for AAA and make room for a new page like the one Malady is proposing.

The proposal for a Just for Fun namespace for AAA may not be a bad idea, either; checking a few wicks at random right now, and I'm beginning to see AAA potholed quite often for uses of alliterative language in editors' own write ups for page descriptions and examples, opposed to identifying any occurrences of alliteration in fictional works.

Just two things I'd like to point out that, while not directly related to these proposals, should have some relevance:

• AAA is currently indexing two different types of lists: TVT pages with alliterative titles, principally, plus a much smaller list of four (perhaps with room to grow to five, depending how things go here) trope pages which focus on specific uses of alliteration appearing in fiction—Alliterative Family, Alliterative List, Alliterative Name, and Alliterative Title (for works themselves).
• If we'd check examples and wicks for AAA and other alliteration tropes, we're likely to turn up a portion of questionable, if inconsistent, examples that probably shouldn't be considered alliteration. Much of this is likely an issue with assumptions some may have that alliteration is any series of words all beginning with the same letter (which is not always the case), and not the same phonetic pronunciations of consonants and vowels.

edited 15th Jul '17 12:17:34 PM by SeanMurrayI

Full suggestions, then:

• Make Added Alliterative Appeal a Just for Fun page, when people want to link in write-ups.
• Move current AAA to an Alliterative Trope Titles page, an index for all the tropes with, you know, titles deliberately alliterative for the appeal
• Make the Alliterative Phrasing page for when it's used In-Universe and in work titles.

^ Can you number your list for better referencing? Comments:

• Option 1: Can we have AAA as a just-for-fun page as well as an actual trope page? Would this be too confusing? If it's a problem, going with option 2 would be more prudent.
• I question point 3. What will be the difference of Alliterative Phrasing and Alliterative List / Alliterative Title.

edited 22nd Jul '17 2:59:53 AM by eroock

- Alliterative Phrasing is supposed to be things that are in the internal text of the work, not the title, and are spoken by characters or narrators... ... I can't find a good phrase for the scope of AP...

Alliterative Lists are a subtrope, 'cause the parts of the list alliterate with each other... Not sure what it is if each part of the list alliterates, but the parts of the list don't alliterate with each other... Likely just AP, then.

But, Alliterative Names don't fit unless they're used in some phrase... "Lois Lane leaps long lengths" or something?

"Pushing plenty of pointy pins precisely producing perfect pictures" only fits AP.

edited 22nd Jul '17 11:38:41 AM by Malady

Would something like Alliterative Speech (or Alliterative Speaking, ...Oration, ...Rhetoric, ...Monologue, ...Eloquence) feel more appropriate?

The term Alliterative Phrasing itself simply feels so generally broad as to encompass long sentences (or possibly paragraphs) that are purposely written with a theme in mind (like the V for Vendetta page quote atop AAA), in addition to any brief figurative expressions that may be more incidental and much less significant (descriptive phrases such as "cute as a kitten" or "dead as a doornail", say).

Cases like the first I describe would certainly qualify as a thematic element of language that would be worthy of its own article, and collected examples of occurrences would have a certain uniqueness. Cases like the second... maybe not so much, but those are what first come to my mind when think of words like "phrase" or "phrasing."

edited 25th Jul '17 1:16:34 PM by SeanMurrayI

^ So, maybe split into various tropes depending on use, or something?

'Cause I don't want to isolate it to speech from characters, 'cause Narrators can do it too. But, Tropes Are Flexible...

And can be downplayed to the point that those sayings / idioms / whatever would count. That's the mnemonic meaning behind the trope, or something. It's catchy?

I will simply repeat what I have written on this before:

I don't view using a supertrope instead of the proper subtrope as a big issue, and I can certainly understand people choosing to go for a meaningful and catchy name - which is what this trope name is.

Blaming Added Alliterative Appeal for misuse becauase of this is similar to blaming the victim. (Granted, not as bad, but it's a victim of its own success as an appealing trope.)

Anothing reason I'm phlegmatic about the misuse is that I primarily view tropes as concept, and I can't say that Alliterative Name or Alliterative Title are different in concept from Added Alliterative Appeal, they are just the concept applied to specific sets. Added Alliterative Appeal simply happens to have dual uses: a supertrope for the application of alliteration, and as an index for alliterative tropes. But both fall under the same concept.

Ie, this is about trying to split a trope with a clear and unambigious concept along media lines. I think any such attempt is doomed to failure and will only contribute to future messes.

... Why is AAA under Just for Fun without being a page of that namespace??

- Can we agree that AAA needs the trope list split off, because it takes the place of where the Examples list should be?

AP is intended to be what people are using AAA as. "Any example of Alliteration, basically." 'cause, a trope without an examples list is really weird.

... With something as single purpose as Alliteration, where any use no mattee what form, is usually for the silly / memorable, I get what you mean.

For a good counter-argument, go to the YKTTW Crashes and go back a few pages from most recent until you find the discussion about splitting Pregnancy Test?

edited 28th Jul '17 5:09:45 AM by Malady

I'd say that we shouldn't think of splitting Added Alliterative Appeal into different tropes, because I see no conceptual difference between an Alliterative Name, an Alliterative Title, or an alliterative trope name. (Alliterative Family is a different trope though, since it covers alliterations between distinct objects to show some form of relation between them.)

Instead, I think we should think on how to best organise and structure it. But it's still one trope.

- I mean: to move that long list of trope names, that is currently where the examples would be in a regular trope page, onto another page or something.

'Cause AAA isn't even a trope page? It's an index and a list of alliterative trope names, that people think is a trope for alliteration in general, based on the name. ... I think, from what I remember.

edited 28th Jul '17 5:54:50 AM by Malady

And we have other indices which also are tropes, like 4X. This just happens to be a very popular one, and a trope that can apply to other tropes. So it's kind of the perfect storm in meta-troping.

- Mmm. I see? ... I guess shrinking the folders down into a single folder... Then that folder is too long? Maybe. Maybe not? I thought it was 1 folder for every letter, but some folders are empty enough that they could be folded into other ones.

Like, U, which only has Unconfessed Unemployment...

Doing so would allow some space for the examples section...

I think the usual idea is, that when you load the page, the examples section should be visible, instead of having to scroll down to it?

edited 28th Jul '17 6:30:57 AM by Malady

Right now, I see the following issues with Added Alliterative Appeal:

1. Too-long page quote 2. The self-demonstration is excessive, making the description hard to read 3. It lacks an analysis page, discussing different forms of alliteration and the way it has been used historically

Then I'd make subpages, like we split up other very popular tropes into media. But this would be stuff like Families, Names, Titles, Tropes, Phrases, Poetry… The trope subpage would also function as an index.

Ie, instead of trying to fight the popularity of the trope, we embrace it.

Cool idea. :)

I would move the listed tropes to a new page like Alliterative Index, and keep this one as a trope page.

I would label that Just for Fun.

IMO it really needs to be in universe only, if someone is intentionally doing it or calling it out in the work then it is an example.

Locking per New Year Purge.