How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

Has anyone other than Nikkolas been implying or outright saying you have no soul if you don’t feel compassion for Axis/Confederate/whomever soldiers and civilians???

Lack of empathy accusations? Like, considering Steam Knights background, I’m not sure I can judge him/her for not feeling any sorrow for those retaliatory bombings. Because yeah, Imperial Japan was not good and did need to be stopped. The only thing I don’t think I can see completely eye to eye on was the quotes over civilians.

I guess the bottom line is that these powers deserved it albeit for pretty understandable reasons and ultimately justified ones?

Mind you, reality is reality and fiction is fiction.

You can be a Zeon, Empire, or Cobra fanboy as well as a die-hard anti-fascist.

Exactly right and it draws thingsback the entire point of the original discussion. Black and Grey Morality in fiction means nothing to your real life politics, at least not in any absolute, universal sense. You get the odd duck here and there but you also get what you said.

I've sided with every authoritarian regime in every game I can do that yet I have always despised the Republican Party (its principles) and Trump and I will always despise them.

Ehhh.

I'm not agreeing personally because there are a bunch of Nazis who are huge Empire and Warhammer fans.

It's just an important distinction to make that there are guys who love the bad guys because they are great characters and guys who agree with being Space Nazis.

And fuck those guys.

But even a person who thinks Zeon Did Nothing Wrong isn't necessarily an actual Nazi. Perhaps there is some correlation but that's not causation. What a person thinks about a dumb piece of fiction can potentially tell you something about who they are but it's not in any way a guaranteed thing.

Is fiction a influence on us? Yes. Is it this all-powerful influence that will lead people astray in spite of, say, a good family and home life? I don't think so. If Gundam or whatever else could be proven to make people Nazis you would have a legitimate argument for censorship of fiction and I'm absolutely opposed to that because I don't think there is any proof that a piece of fiction can make you a fascist. That person was a fascist already and was just looking for an excuse.

If you don't think fiction influences how people think, you don't belong in this thread. The whole purpose of the thread is to analyze the impact fiction has on people, and there's only so many times you can say "it doesn't" before you should just leave and find somewhere more suited to your opinion.

And while a Zeon fanboy isn't automatically a real life fascist, there's a correlation between "Zeon did nothing wrong" and "clueless moron" that renders them deeply obnoxious. It's one thing to think that "Zeon's mobile suits are cooler" but by the time you're making apologia for what Zeon did, you've left reality behind and made yourself, at best, deeply irritating to everyone around you. Same goes for fanboys of most villainous factions. You can think Darth Vader is cool, but by the point you are unironically claiming "Alderaan had it coming" you have issues.

"It's just a story, stop analyzing it" is the last cry of those who don't want the problematic elements of a work examined, or, in many cases, those who have lost the argument over what angle we're going to analyze it from.

@Nikkolas: I can understand an anti-fascist like Zeon because their mecha look cool or just for lulz or giggles because it's just a fictional story or whatever, but an anti-fascist like Zeon because they think it did nothing wrong? That dude either suffers from a severe selective obliviousness, a troll, is just that stupid, or his anti-fascism cred is questionable.

FYI, I do think fiction is more than just a mere fiction. There is a reason that propaganda exists.

Regarding the Japanese, it's interesting that the book The Man in the High Castle had the Japanese as quasi-benevolent, but the show is strikingly clear on how atrocious Imperial Japan is, with the very first episode already kicking off with the Imperial Japanese character torturing and killing innocent people before gassing a family (including two children). It only goes downhill from there.

I guess I'll just quote myself.

"Is fiction a influence on us? Yes. Is it this all-powerful influence that will lead people astray in spite of, say, a good family and home life?"

So, no and , fiction is not "just" fiction andI have not at any single point denied it influences us. Hell, it influences me regularly as it has spawned my love of politics and philosophy. It is a part of our society and a part of who we are. But it's not all we are. It's not even a super important part of who we are. It's just a part and things like education or family matter far, far more to informing your worldview.

Warhammer 40K will not make a Nazi out of somebody who was raised by Anarcho-Communists and who was raised in a liberal democratic US school system. If that kid ended up as a Nazi, it's because there was something wrong with him. He hated his parents and thus became everything they despised for instance. WH 40 K was just an influence, one of many.

Analyzing how fiction effects us is fine and it's why I like this thread. But it's still only one effect.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 14th 2018 at 10:24:02 AM

Mind you, Warhammer 40K has drifted from Catholic Space Nazis.

They've been downplaying and even erasing a lot of the darkest elements for years.

No one has actually made the case that fiction creates Nazis, Nikkolas. Well, except for you actually, when you claimed Black-and-White Morality creates them. We've argued that certain narratives enable reactionaries, by giving them language that they can employ to cover for what they are, and persuade others to come along.

What would be an example of Black and white morality in fictioon without all the........"doubts" and questionable morality?

Fairy tales.

And probably pre-3D/Live-Action-reboot Disney movies based off those tales. (though Beauty And The Beast is questionable for different reasons)

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jul 15th 2018 at 7:27:00 AM

STAR WARS

Damn, you beat me to it

I'd also want to say the Golden and Silver ages of Comic books (misleading covers aside might also be black and white. At least in comparison to the Dark Age of Comic Books.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jul 15th 2018 at 7:42:37 AM

Your average pro-wrestling storyline that doesn't involve foreigners. It's usually a great, simple and yet emotional and rewarding narrative of a bad guy being punished for being bad and the good guy triumphing over adversity.

Most seasons of Power Rangers qualify. The closest we got to black and grey morality in the franchise was Time Force where the Rangers were working for a blatantly racist government.

Edited by windleopard on Jul 15th 2018 at 8:57:12 AM

Most of the GI Joe media was pretty much cut-and-dry black and white (though the comics did go into more interesting areas). Most theatrical shorts from the golden age of animation count as well.

I also wonder if it is possible to utilize the whole Black and White morality with more nuance? I know that not everything is grey, black or white but I wonder if that means that we cannot have nuance and depth in Black and White stories?

You mean like not making the "black" side complete monsters? Something like that?

Not all of them........

Plenty of Black and White stories don't make their antagonists out to be Complete Monsters. They just have to make it clear that one side are the good guys and the other side are the bad guys. If you can't do that without resorting to making your antagonist a puppy kicking rapist...you're a shitty writer.

Although TBF, some people would still insist on interpreting the narrative as Grey even if the antagonist is that blatantly awful. Which is how you get people engaging in Death Star apologia.

Edited by M84 on Jul 16th 2018 at 7:41:40 PM

Well. There a fair amount of them that have Complete Monster. Star Wars is a shining example of it. Not that it's bad. Villains like Palpatine and Tarkin are lovely in their sheer selfishness.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 16th 2018 at 6:54:00 AM