Condemned by History cleanup thread

Suspended them for edit warring, reverted the example.

I don't think they were Edit Warring; as far as I know they weren't the person who originally added the example. I brought the matter here to avoid an Edit War, since (as I understand it) that's what I'd be doing if I re-deleted it without discussion.

edited 13th Jul '17 7:01:17 AM by HighCrate

Thanks for clearing up that I wasn't edit warring, High Crate. For the record, I also didn't even know this thread exists (shouldn't there be a banner or something that notes that there's a cleanup thread?).

To clarify, Identity Crisis was controversial, but was still a very beloved comic. One that sold incredibly well as well. I think that's what the "never lacking in detractors'' means. It was credited for getting many people into the DCU, deconstructing Silver Age superheroes and adding "maturity" to the genre. AT THE TIME.

edited 21st Jul '17 1:26:38 AM by FuzzyBarbarian

While I'm here, I should note: Chuck Austen is not an example. He was NEVER that popular, nor was his War Machine miniseries. The fact that it's the ONLY "popular" work attributed to him before the backlash says a lot.

Would Leafy Is Here, Equals Three, and the Fine Brothers count as examples for Web Original? It seems like they're the big punchlines on You Tube these days.

I have no idea what any of those are. I'm going to hazard an opinion that Youtube phenomena should probably be classed along with fanfiction as too much of a niche to ever be "disco" in the first place, let alone Deader Than Disco.

@nrjxll

The same can be said of comic books. Hell, ARCHITECTURE is in there. I always thought it had to be popular WITHIN its medium, not mainstream popular

edited 23rd Jul '17 3:45:09 AM by FuzzyBarbarian

So... can I get any thoughts on removing the Chuck Austen example?

I've read that Comicsalliance article numerous times (even before seeing it here), and it never says that Austen was popular, merely that he had a lot of opportunities to BE popular. Seriously, he was never popular as a creator, and definitely less popular than Identity Crisis was.

I make Youtube videos for a living and I haven't heard of two of those. As for the third, reaction videos are popular, but I doubt 10% of the people who watch them know who the Fine Bros are or give a shit about the shenanigans that have caused backlash against them. I've got no love for them, but DTD they ain't.

Equals Three used to be VERY popular (raywilliamjohnson was the most subscribed person on You Tube at numerous points), but I don't think it's reached a point where it's mocked and regarded as deader than disco. It's just not popular anymore.

Ultimate Marvel has a long entry, but it is a misleading one, filled with half-truths and misinformations, made in order to dismiss the significance of the work. Let's check:

• First, the reasons for the end of the line. It is not, as suggested, that people despised the Ultimate line and so it dissapeared without leaving traces. It ended because it ultimately became redundant. When the line was first created in the 2000, it introduced a new way to write superhero comic books, both in the plots and the arts. The plot focused on a more down-to-earth approach towards people with super powers, and the likely consequence of their existence in areas such as politics, international relations, collateral damage, military, science, the perspectives of normal people without powers, etc. This existed before in the genre, but only at a minimal level. The arts tried a less "cartoony" approach: most suits were either redesigned to look like something someone may actually wear, or even ignored altoguether, characters do not use though baloons or long pages filled with exposition, action sequences try to resemble film standards, "time at home" sequences try to resemble sitcom standards, etc. Back in 2000, this set the new line completely apart from the style of the comics in the mainstream line. Nowadays, both of those styles has been fully adopted by the mainstream line, which rendered the line redundant: why read about some alternate version of the X-Men, that are so similar to the "real" X-Men? Even DC, the rival of Marvel in the superhero genre, adopted those styles. The Ultimates have not faded into oblivion, they have redefined the whole superhero genre to its moden form. They may be dead, but not like disco: they are triumphantly dead like Terminator at the end of Terminator 2: Judgment Day.
• In light of that, who cares that only a pair of characters got to migrate to the main line? That's a secondary concern, which does not speak of the ultimate legacy of the ultimate line like the previous points. In fact, there is very good reason for this: having several versions of a same character running around is precisely the cause of so many continuity snarls that plagued DC until the first Crisis on Infinite Earths reboot. That's also the reason the Ultimates were completely Exiled from Continuity during 12 of their 15 years of existence. During that time, as far as each universe was concerned, there was a single Iron Man, and now it's the same. Miles Morales and the Maker got to migrate because they are different enough to the mainstream Spider-Man and Reed Richards (not simply "his personality is a bit different here and there") that there is little risk of such confusion. Had Ultimate Peter Parker not died, he would have not migrated into the mainstream universe, regardless of his popularity.
• Note as well that the Ultimate line introduced several ideas that were later adopted by the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and some of them even were retroactively used in the mainstream comics at some later point. Tony Stark was reimagined as a a skeezy, boozed-up prick who was nonetheless sympathetic and charismatic. Nick Fury was modeled after Samuel Jackson. Hawkeye, a jokester in a clownish purple suit, was turned into a cold SHIELD agent in a simpler leather suit. The Avengers, a group of superheroes who simply thought it would be great to make a group, were turned into a military operation, fully organized and sponsored by SHIELD. As you can see, all those apply to the MCU as well, and not without reason. And, although less obvious on first sight, the MCU films and TV series also embraced the narrative style described earlier.
• "Possibly another factor that did in the Ultimate continuity was that the internet made it easier for people to look up a character or storyline to catch up on the history, helping to mitigate some of the problems inherent with continuity lockouts and snarls." That's misleading. Indeed, another of the early advantages of the Ultimate line was that it was free of references from the endless continuity of the mainstream comics. This is not a problem anymore... because modern comics do not abuse of Continuity Porn as they used to do. Take an X-Men comic from the nineties, almost all dialogues are filled with asterisks that point to small boxes saying "See Uncanny X-Men #234", "See Wolverine #55", "See X-Force #30", "See Wolverine Meets the Harlem Globetrotters #5", etc; and you had to have read all those issues to even understand what was going on. That's not a problem now because comics are readily available on internet, but because stories are more self-contained now. Continuity is there, it is a bonus to know about it, but you are not required to know about stories that may be older than even you.
• "Today, Marvel's 616 universe is one of the most popular comic book universes in the world, while Ultimate Marvel is frequently seen as "That universe full of Designated Heroes and a good Spider-Man"." That comment is completely misplaced. The Ultimate imprint was never meant to compete with the mainstream one. Not the way Marvel and DC compete, at least. It's everything Marvel Comics, so that line is basically saying that Marvel is more popular than... itself?
• "The minimal fanfare its demolition got aside from a single mini-series should be a telling indicator in how far the setting fell in the eyes of comic fans." Except that's not the case. The series was not ended with just a miniseries, it was ended with a full Crisis Crossover that closed a story that was being developed many years before that. That's the whole reason Secret Wars exists. The comic book industry does not have a higher and louder setting for a Grand Finale fanfarre than that... specially considering that, as an imprint taking place in an alternate universe, it could have been silently cancelled and without any impact on the other titles, if it was so reviled as suggested.

I think you're misunderstanding. NOBODY is contesting the Ultimate Universe' impact (that should actually probably be added into the entry); it WAS beloved. That is the point of Deader Than Disco. But it fell HUGELY with the increasingly Darker and Edgier aspects and then the failed relaunches of Ultimate Fantastic Four and Ultimates. Redundancy didn't end it — low sales did. Because it was relaunched multiple times since the mainstream Marvel universe adopted "its style" (none of which it hugely pioneered like you're suggesting).

It's not about abusing continuity porn, but just the barrier to entry that continuity inherently creates. Superhero comics are daunting, and the Ultimate Universe's relative lack of continuity at first helped offered an alternative. But with the advent of the internet, there are other ways to sidestep that barrier while still reading the mainstream Marvel Universe.

That line about the popularity of 616 seems like it's more to punctuate the fall in popularity of the Ultimate Universe.

The universe WAS ended with a miniseries. Sure, Secret Wars ended it... as part of its PREMISE; it wasn't ABOUT the Ultimate Universe ending. That story that was building up for multiple years had almost NOTHING to do with what the Ultimates were doing. The ONLY relation is that Jonathan Hickman wrote Ultimates for two arcs. Secret Wars was building for years Hickman's in his Fantastic Four and Avengers runs, which in no way involved the Ultimate Universe. Secret Wars, as in the core series, barely touched on the Ultimate Universe, nor did it in any way celebrate it.

Again, can I get some opinions on the Chuck Austen example? Seriously, he was never POPULAR (he had, like, two SOMEWHAT popular works) and even the article linked talks about his failure to BECOME popular given his chances than his actually BEING popular.

Also, I thought we didn't Deader Than Disco CREATORS. Isn't that more for Fallen Creator (if he were popular)?

Also also, can I get some opinions on re-adding the Identity Crisis example?

Read again, my point has never been "It has once been popular". The point is that they established a new style, which then became the standard for the mainstream Marvel Comics, and even for DC. Which means that the work is not universally reviled now, otherwise its style would not have sticked, and comics would still be like they used to be in the 1990s. Yes, the original hype decreased, the imprint had lower sales, and it was eventually ended. That's not what DTD is about, otherwise we would an endless list of cancelled works. And yes, Ultimate Marvel did help to establish those styles. Why do think they were so successful to begin with?

As for continuity porn, what are you trying to say? That mainstream comic books have not changed in that aspect from 1990s to modern day, but it's no longer a problem because of comics available on internet? Well, that completely false. Internet or not, modern comics do not rely so much on continuity porn as they used to. Which means that a selling point of the Ultimates in their first days is not so much nowadays, leading to a sales decrease. But again: mere sales decrease do not mean DTD. In any case, are you familiar with 1990s comic books? Are you aware of the evolution of the medium between pre-Ultimate and post-Ultimate times?

The bit that says "That universe full of Designated Heroes and a good Spider-Man" is phrased as if we were quoting someone, but no. A google search reveals that our page is the single page with that comment.

As for Secret Wars, you have to consider it from the out-of-universe view, not the in-universe one. In-universe, it was the destruction and reconstruction of several universes and timelines, the Ultimate one just one among many. But, out-of-universe, the Ultimate one was the only one that was part of ongoing publications. All the others are just part of specific storylines (for example, Age of Ultron) or part of alternate universe projects that had already concluded publication (for example, Age of Apocalypse). They are there simply to give more fanfarre and spectacle to a story that basically merged both universes into a single one. And note that, before the crossover, Ultimate Future Foundation was also dealing with the incursions, from the Ultimate universe side of things.

It DIDN'T introduce a new style though; and those things don't define the work as a whole. But the negatively received elements are VERY present. You're viewing the work on a historical level and not as a work in and of itself. And I mentioned the sales because THAT is why it ended.

IT'S NOT ABOUT CONTINUITY PORN. The very idea of continuity in comic books is intimidating to new readers, whether that's accurate or not is irrelevant. And the Ultimate Universe was an alternative for those afraid of this barrier to entry. People no longer need that alternative.

I am aware of comics from the 90s. I'm aware of the superhero genre's evolution. The Ultimate Universe didn't cause this; it was PART of it.

Yes, as you said, an out of universe view is important... and in that sense, it got a mini — that's even in the entry. It AS part of ongoing publications... that weren't successful. The end of the Ultimate Universe was BARELY relevant to Secret Wars, both in and out of universe. And that story didn't even merge the universes. The universe is STILL just the mainstream universe — almost NOTHING from the Ultimate universe was brought over, never mind merged into continuity. You got an evil Reed, an alternate Spider-Man, Wolverine's son, a random sidekick (Bombshell) and a different Mjolnir. That is hardly a merging. That is a few Canon Immigrants.

The incursions may have been dealt with by Ultimate FF, but that series ran for six issues. And began years after Hickman laid the groundwork for the series. Hell, it began over a year after he DIRECTLY BEGAN the Incursions story in New Avengers. The "years" of build up to Secret Wars were in the mainstream universe, in Hickman's Fantastic Four and Avengers, and barely involved the Ultimate Universe.

It seems like the trope you're looking for is Seinfeld Is Unfunny, albeit Ultimate Marvel didn't really spawn any new ideas and like, just used a lot of them at a time when they were still kinda new and not AS thoroughly used as today.

edited 30th Jul '17 6:20:35 AM by FuzzyBarbarian

See the disclaimer up this forum: "Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre.Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here". If there was such a backlash, the ultimate style would have not sticked in the genre as a whole as it did. There was such backlash against the "Ultimates 3" and "Ultimatum" stories, but it ceased when Loeb was removed from the imprint.

Those stylistic elements weren't hugely derived from the Ultimates, and those that persisted into more popular adaptions (such as the MCU) are largely superficial. And there's backlash on the work for other elements of it (listed in the entry even). Many things take elements from a work that is then disliked. Again, you're not viewing the work as its own work, but for its perceived impact on the industry.

Also, troper Julian Lapostat, who re-added the entry after you deleted it on a YMMV page but can't post in the forums due to a ban, also agrees that it should remain.

As the one who added it, I'm also in favor or keeping Ultimate Marvel. As someone in the Marvel fandom, the whole continuity's basically become a byword for 3edgy5me.

There it is. It was added for Flame Bait. The original author, by his own admision, added it for Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.

Except it's not just their opinion. It's the opinion of more than a few people. You're just Defending a Show You Like and haven't addressed many of the arguments for it. Even one of the sources YOU used to justify an edit said the universe was little mourned. You're judging the entire work for its perceived impact on the superhero genre, and that's ALL you've really done.

edited 31st Jul '17 6:47:02 AM by FuzzyBarbarian

Guys, cut it out. DTD is not for every work or style of work that was popular at one time and is no longer popular now. Otherwise it would literally have everything that was ever cancelled. DTD is for styles of work that have fallen out of popularity to the point where most references to them in media are satirical or parodic in nature.

Something that might prove this example would be if current Marvel works disparage Ultimate Marvel frequently through fourth wall breaks and such, or if writers pointedly ignore or retcon Ultimate Marvel continuity, and so on. It's not just that it was discontinued. Everything ends eventually. It's DTD if it ended and everyone is constantly reminding us that it ended by making fun of it.

edited 31st Jul '17 6:51:27 AM by Fighteer

This was added to the main page, a couple of days ago:

Are you serious? That is just.. what? Kill it and salt the ground it came from.

Edit: The main problem, aside from the RL and flame-baity nature of the example, is that it's not even clear about what is supposedly "deader than disco" that was once popular. Circumcision? Forced gender reassignment surgery? Da fuq?

edited 31st Jul '17 7:52:08 AM by Fighteer

Assigning genders to intersex children. I don't think it's quite Deader Than Disco yet, so cut.

Reading it more carefully, the idea seemed to be that gender identity is a learned behavior rather than based on genetics or prenatal hormonal balances. As this is a matter of medical theory that seems to have been conclusively proven false, and never became "widely popular" to the point where everybody was performing forced gender assignment, I don't see how the trope can even apply to it.

edited 31st Jul '17 8:24:15 AM by Fighteer