Diversity and Representation in Media

You know, the one movie I remember with an asian lead in recent memory is...Big Hero 6. Which is an animated movie, and one which I actually enjoyed a lot, but it does strike me as kinda weird. It also strikes me as weird because I'm sure an asian bishounen lead in action movie or something would be very marketable.

Yeah, the problem isn't really with this specific film, but with the trend it follows (and continues). Also, I confess I haven't actually seen the movie, so I can't really criticize it with any confidence. I should probably watch it, so that if nothing else, I can do some informed complaining.

Good luck convincing a board of executives of that, though. As far as they're concerned, the only thing anyone will pay to see is a straight white guy. Asian actors have a hard time in the big-budget film industry, I understand. It's improving on the TV series side of things, though, with stuff like Dr. Ken, Fresh off the Boat, and Into the Badlands. Which is pretty cool, I just wish I liked any of them.

That's part of why the casting of Kelly Marie Tran, Donnie Yen, and Jiang Wen in the upcoming Star Wars movies is such a big deal for me. This is a serious opportunity to showcase Asian people as genuine characters in one of the biggest film franchises in the world - if it goes well, it could set a very encouraging precedent.

edited 23rd Feb '16 5:56:44 PM by RBluefish

Steven Yeun, the guy who plays Glenn on The Walking Dead, has talked about how it's still hard for Asian-American actors, and just Asian actors in general, to still get roles in Hollywood. It's really sad.

There was Mako in Pacific Rim, who was a lead despite not being advertised as such, at all.

Mako Mori was a great role and Pacific Rim was overall good on diversity, but let's not forget that the main lead was still a white male and over half the Asian cast was killed at the same time.

Jon Oliver talked about this recently and one of the things he noted is that part of the reason it's hard for minority actors to come across parts is that the big, high profile POC parts, are still going to white people for some reason.

I think that definitely applies to Yeun's argument. We've got a Death Note movie coming out with the two Japanese leads changed to white people. We've got Ghost In the Shell with the Japanese lead changed to a white woman. We had Pan (which despite being fucking terrible, was a big expensive blockbuster) with the Native female lead played by a blond white woman. Hell we had Emma Stone playing a Hawaiian-Chinese woman not too long ago. And then there was the infamous example of 21 taking most of the Asian characters and replacing them with fictional white people, despite being based on a true story. And then more recently, Tilda Swinton being cast as the Ancient One in Doctor Strange.

It's like Hollywood likes Asian characters just so long as they're not played by Asians.

edited 24th Feb '16 11:18:35 AM by comicwriter

Ghost in the Shell's Batou will also be played by a white (Danish) man - and Sam Riley is also rumored to be in it. I already discussed it on the dedicated thread but since this probably means it will not take place in futuristic Japan, I am almost certain that it will utterly fail to embrace the depth of the animated universe.

Not that getting it right is easy, but there is "doing something simpler yet respectful" and "missing the point so hard you barely recognize the original work".

There is a circlejerk with Asian actors, going "We can't give them leading roles because they aren't famous enough" - yet being famous enough when you don't get leading roles is quite hard when you think about it.

I remember Lee Byung-hun and his unbelievable class being in RED 2, and Choi Min-sik being in Lucy (ironically, just like the future Major & Batou from live-action Ghost in the Shell). So there are Asian actors american audiences could learn to know - if they were given a chance too.

And if language is an issue, or accent - well, dub them. Ron Perlman got one of his first leading roles in a French movie, and didn't speak a word of French. He did everything in phonetic, just like Doug Jones did in Pan's Labyrinth since he did not speak Spanish.

And I would also say that we're in an era where actor name recognition is becoming less and less important.

I mean, did anyone think even a few years ago that the fat guy from Parks and Recreations was going to be the lead in one of the biggest box office smash hits of all time? You can take a chance on unproven talent, so saying that the problem is there aren't any Asian superstars (except Jet Li and Jackie Chan) is still not really a serious counterargument.

For another example, look at The Force Awakens, which of course starred John Boyega and Daisey Ridley, both of them unknown actors with no major roles prior to this. And that movie did pretty well, if I recall correctly. And for bonus points, one of the leads was black. The whole "POC actors won't sell tickets," argument is complete horseshit, as is the "this film needs big-name actors to be a success" argument. At this point, I don't know Hollywood executives are actively racist, or if they're just hilariously out-of-touch.

On the subject of anime adaptations, don't forget a while ago, they were trying to make a whitewashed live-action version of Akira. I'm not even sure what the status on that is these days.

Hollywood really does love Asian characters and culture, so long as they don't have to include any Asian people (not in central roles, at least). East Asia (Japan in particular) tends to be a popular target for good-old-fashioned cultural appropriation.

I actually had a bit of an argument the other day (a civil argument) with someone about the casting of Emma Stone in Aloha. He thought it was appropriate casting, I maintain that it's whitewashing. There were any number of actors who could have played that role, and actually had the proper heritage. They made a conscious decision to cast a white actor instead of a part-Asian one, and that's unacceptable in my book.

@higherbrainpattern: Nothing much to add here, except I want to fanboy out for a minute and say that I freaking love Glenn (and Steven Yeun by extension). I'm not alone there, either - he's extremely popular with the entire Asian-American community, and is generally considered one of the best (if not the best) Asian-American characters on television today. I'm really looking forward to him voicing Tony Chu.

edited 24th Feb '16 4:48:52 PM by RBluefish

I would say that it's a mix of both with one of them being more prevalent depending on the particulars.

From what I understand they have very old ideas about what makes a successful movie when the reality is that nobody knows. If anything, some stuff is guaranteed to sell no matter what. Disney might have recognized this which was why they could have a female lead and a black deuteragonist, both relative unknowns, and get away with it.

The question is always: Why are people suppose to watch a movie? There are usually four possible reasons: The Director, the Actor, the Franchise or the Oscar buzz. Nowadays a Franchise is the safest bet, but not all franchises are automatically made to be a success, and in those cases the right actor or director can make all the difference.

In the case of Ghost in the Shell one has to consider that the property is not as well-known as the fans like to believe (I covered the movie last December along with a lot of others, and I noticed that even a lot animation fans have never seen it) and it will most likely not get any Oscar buzz so yes, it actually does make sense to cast a lead with name recognition - and Sca Jo is one of the few actors who still does convince people to watch a movie based on the name alone, if Lucy is any indication. In addition, while it is based on a Manga, neither the characters nor the setting is specifically Japanese. It is, all things considered, not the best movie to bring up concerning this issue. Neither is The Last Samurai, btw. After all the core theme of the movie is the western view on this particular culture, so you naturally need a westerner as protagonist. In a way the question shouldn't be why The Last Samurai has a white protagonist, but why Hollywood has never considered that Japanese History and Myths might be a movie topic which could resonate with the audience. In order to make it non-offensive you would naturally need some Japanese on the project, but just imagine to see some of those battles and stories in a big Hollywood production.

edited 25th Feb '16 2:06:27 AM by Swanpride

Forbes did this piece when Pan bombed and it's a good examination of the topic and how despite suits using the evidence that whitewashing is necessary, the mounting evidence would seem to indicate that it really does not help much.

Going back to the Aloha example, the movie was already packed with stars and Emma Stone's popularity didn't do anything to help the movie's box office, so at the end of the day, all casting a white girl as the Asian female lead accomplished was make sure the movie got a ton of negative publicity.

edited 25th Feb '16 9:18:20 AM by comicwriter

I think Aloha is one of the most egregious examples because Hawaii has a huge multiracial population. Like it's hilarious that the character is created in reference to this reality and then rather than casting one of the thousands (millions?) of people who belong to this demographic, they cast a white person.

On the other hand, I do have a peeve about the citation of Ghost in the Shell and Death Note- those are obviously not going to be set in Japan in the adaptation, so there's no reason that the whole cast or even the lead needs to be Japanese. It's like (for example) how Wild Target is a British remake of a French film and is set in England with a British cast.

The New York Times recently did this piece. What It’s Really Like to Work in Hollywood (If You're Not A Straight White Man)

Some of the quotes are very eye opening.

Ken Jeong

Wendell Pierce

John Ridley

Lori Mccreary

Justin Lin

Jimmy Smits

The Morgan Freeman example is at least Hilarious in Hindsight for obvious reasons.

edited 25th Feb '16 9:17:11 AM by comicwriter

The forbes article echoes my own sentiments pretty much precisely: having a big star is not a guarantee that your movie will be a success. Whitewashing does not ensure your movie will be a success.

If most audiences don't care either way, you might as well hire someone of the appropriate ethnicity and get the good press for all it will be worth.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:36:10 PM by wehrmacht

For example, look at what happened with The Lone Ranger. And Pan.

I kind of enjoyed the lone ranger as a guilty pleasure of sorts but i really think that they should have cast someone else besides johnny depp.

@comicwriter- That's something I find important (and sad)- there's this broader issue than the Oscar discussion/discussion of whitewashing wherein actors of color generally don't get meaty roles nor roles that aren't in some way tied to their ethnicity.

Like as an example, not that it was the greatest show, but John Cho ending up being cast in Selfie was a big thing because actors of color, especially Asian actors don't get a lot of romantic lead roles. I'd say ditto for John Boyega in Star Wars.

Good articles, both of them. It's especially sad that some of the cited quotes recall exec boards with minorities in them who still are protesting minority leads.

Exactly. This goes with the quote from the guy about being asked why the lead character in his screenplay needed to be black. Minority characters don't usually get to exist outside of certain predetermined roles.

edited 25th Feb '16 1:04:34 PM by comicwriter

For a perfect example of this kind of thinking, look at the what happened a while back when the Coen brothers were asked why there weren't more (read: any) actors of color in ''Hail Caesar!" Their response? Exasperated sighs and a "why would there be?" Not to mention this classy little tidbit:

That's right - unless there is an ironclad, incontrovertible reason that a certain character needs to be nonwhite, then the character is just white. There has to be some sort of justification for a character not being white. Suggesting anything else is "idiotic." (Love the way he compares black or Chinese people to dogs and Martians, by the way.)

What they seem to be too privileged to understand is this: diversity never needs to be justified. In fact, it's the obvious. Being diverse should be the default state of being for a story. It's not being diverse that should necessitate a justification. That's what you had better have a damned good reason for.

For example, I might ask, "Why does this film have no women or people of color in prominent roles?" And the answer might be, "Because it's Saving Private Ryan, we're trying to remain as historically accurate as possible, and women and people of color weren't allowed in this particular branch of the military in this time period." To which I say, "Fair enough!" There are stories where being diverse simply wouldn't make sense in-universe, and these stories do deserve to be told. The problem is that stories that would, realistically, only feature white men, are heavily favored over stories that would, realistically, not feature many white men at all. We don't necessarily need less of one - we need more of the other.

@Swanpride: That's the problem that PoC actors face in the industry. Shot callers think they need big-name actors to sell anything ^note an idea I really dislike, but whatever, could be true, and by convenient coincidence, there are, comparatively speaking, very few big-name nonwhite actors.

With The Last Samurai, like I said, the problem isn't so much with the specific film, but with the trend that it both follows and perpetuates. Were it not for the pattern of white characters starring in stories that are primarily about East Asia, I wouldn't even bring it up. But the trend is hard to ignore, and so I still make a point of examining its use here, even if it's not the most egregious example out there.

Also...oh, Lucy. Don't get me started about Lucy^note AKA "Scarlett Johannson kills a whole bunch of Asian people and kneecaps a taxi driver for not speaking English, this post is long enough as it is.

It's NOT true though. There are plenty of films that didn't exactly have bankable stars onboard (at least for the lead roles), but ended up being very successful anyways. Die Hard and Star Wars are both examples of this.

Wasn't Hail Caesar meant to be a movie satirizing the 50's/60's era of historical epics and regular 'sword and sandal movies' and the movie industry around them? Considering how there was, in fact, little presence of non-white people in those days, you'd think the Coens would have gotten that thing quite right.

(Not defending the argument quoted above, which was very poorly argued, btw)

edited 25th Feb '16 4:31:31 PM by Quag15

Yeah, that's the thing. They could have just said "because we're trying to remain as accurate as possible to the racial demographics of that industry at that time." And that would have been enough. I still wouldn't have given them any points for it, but it would have been a fairly legitimate reason.

Instead, they pretty much said that being white is the default, and that nonwhite characters are some sort of bizarre, extraneous detail that should be restricted only to very specific stories, and that need to be heavily justified.

That is actually now how I understood their words. And to me asking why there are no more black and/or Asien people in Hail Cesar is like asking why there aren't any female characters in Shawshanks redemption. As I said before, this is not the right question. The right question would be why most movies are writing from a white male perspective and are set in a white world. And the answer is easy: Because most Producers and Writers are white guy. In the last years more and more females have found jobs behind the scenes - and suddenly there are way more shows and movies which do provide a female perspective.

Hollywood has to change behind the scenes first.