The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

Well, I'm being coy because I don't want to come across as proselytizing. Perhaps we should move this to PM?

Cross-posted from the Updates thread because I realized it fit better here:

Reading Rick Riordan's modern mythology novels, I get a different feel for the different god stories.

Greek (and Roman) mythology is epic, romantic, and tragic.

Egyptian mythology is dry, stoic, and imperial.

Norse mythology is weird, confusing, and a little bit gross. Thor has two talking resurrecting goats that he kills and eats every day and Loki is chained to a stone slab with the entrails of his sons.

Maybe it looks like that because we're culturally descended from the greeks, and their stories were better preserved because of that.

Maybe. IIRC, the Norse didn't start writing their stuff down until their religion was on its way out. This could explain why they come across as a bit confusing.

Egyptian mythology is apparently confusing as well, simply because they didn't even try to be consistent.

As for Greek Culture-I'm not entirely sure. I myself find Greek mythology to be rather alien in nature.

edited 7th Nov '15 4:42:49 PM by Protagonist506

The Norse didn't write their stories down but the Asian and Arabic peoples' they encountered did.

Not all of us are culturally descended from the Greeks either.

And further reading on the Tezuka manga has gotten me to the part where Buddha flat out gives up on the Shakya and resigns himself to the destruction of Kapilavastu.

I'm honestly disappointed. Incredibly harsh. Like I get why but expected him to do something else.

Now I'm wondering if Rick Riordan would write a story based on African mythology next. Well, the only African mythology I have knowledge of is yoruba mythology, because it's still, uh, religiously relevant nowadays. So I'm not sure if followers of that religion would enjoy someone from outside of it writing a story about it. I guess it'd be like a non-Christian author writing a book about Jesus in it?

By the way, are his books using Egyptian and Norse mythology any good? I read the Greek/Roman ones, and I liked them well enough.

Oi. Shows how much you know. <_<

There's plenty of myth, legend and tall tales from all cultures in Africa, thank you very much.

Rip Van Winkle, by the way: from the Cape.

Hm, but that's exactly what I said. That I don't know African mythology very well, specially because there are hundreds if not thousands of different African cultures. At least here in Brazil, yoruba mythology seems to be the most well known one, so I was: a) guessing if he'd write a book based on an African mythology, it'd be yoruba; and b) pointing out what I meant by saying "African mythology" because the only one I know of is yoruba.

I mean, technically speaking, Islam has a big presence in North Africa, but I hardly doubt Rick Riordan would write a book based on it, for the same reasons I doubt he'd write a book about other Abrahamic faiths.

Also, who's Van Winkle?

Rip Van Winkle is a short story that uses a lot of Cape Dutch ideas in it. Not least some of the folk tales told about Devil's Peak (there are many, following basic templates).

Irving basically nicked it, applied embroidery (and fairy dust) along with a place-change... and neglected attribution.

In about the same way the Flying Dutchman got stolen. :/ Yes, there is a common Dutch-colonial culture. But old Rip is still a folk figure in the Cape alongside Van Der Merwe.

The Witch of Hexrivier is a good Cape tale. Or the Hauntings of Constantia. Not to mention all the tales surrounding Table Mountain and Lion's Peak and oh-so many about the Devil (various flavours of, as the Islamic Malay also have added to the body of myth). Or, the remaining tales of Mantis, Tokoloshe, witchery (and more kinds of familiar than just the dangerous Tokoloshe) and cannibal tales (many flavours) to scare you witless... all sorts.

That's just the tip of the Cape. The rest of Southern Africa can knock your socks off.

edited 8th Nov '15 8:17:33 AM by Euodiachloris

Oh, I remember when I was a child and I read an adaptation of that story in Monica's Gang. I think it bears no resemblance to the original other than "person goes to sleep and wakes up 20 years later".

Speaking of the Dutch, they also invaded Brazil for quite some time, but kept themselves mostly to the Northeast. I read a book, adapted from a play, called Calabar: The Praise of Treason, about it. Though it seems that it was mostly a metaphor to the period the book was written in (the Brazilian Civil-Military Dictatorship).

I have more to talk about "African studies, cultures and mythologies" and "Brazil", and perhaps a little bit about myself, that would be better served in the Race: Privilege, Relations and Racism thread. However, I'm not going to do that now. Yesterday I got sick as hell and didn't sleep properly. I'm already feeling better, but I'm not in the proper mindset to talk about this. Maybe another day.

The Dutch War, as the Dutch invasion of the Northeast is commonly called, is a pretty epic event. To clue in people, Calabar (the apparent subject of the play/book our comrade has read) was a man who fought with the Brazilian resistance but switched sides to the Dutch until the leader of the Resistance managed to capture and fucking garotte him to death because he was metal as fuck. So "Calabar" is used as a synonym for a traitor much in the manner of "Judas" or "Benedict Arnold".

There was a strong religious sentiment to it because the massively, and fervently Catholic population of the Brazilian Northeast was at war with the much more liberal Dutch, to the point the war is often called "War for the Divine Light". In period documents you can often find the Resistance calling the Dutch "Heathens" making the whole thing sound like a war to save Catholicism from their hands.

Not aided by the fact Jews (who suffered some prejudice at the hands of the Natives) aided the Dutch which made the whole thing an even bigger mess when it came to religion.

edited 8th Nov '15 2:49:23 PM by Gaon

I wasn't aware of the religious component of the war. What I thought I knew of it was the bourgeois or whatever subgroup of rich people at the time siding with the Dutch because they allowed them more freedom when it came to trading and stuff.

Generally, my history books mentioned "money" and "power" when talking about wars on Brazil. They mention secondary reasons, but generally seems like everything in this country was fought over greed.

And then the engines turn at some point after 45 to "USA".

The motivations of the Dutch were pretty much just "Money" to the point you can picture the Dutch anthem being this, but the motivation of the Resistance had a component of religiousness to it, "expel the Heathens from our lands!" and all.

I, for one, would love to know more about African or Brazilian religious traditions.

@Victin The Egyptian series was good. I liked it. The Kane Chronicles is narrated alternatingly by Carter and Sadie Kane, so every two chapters it shifts over to the other sibling. Carter is the bookish serious one and Sadie is the irreverent bratty one.

The first book of Magnus Chase is more Percy Jackson though because it's narrated only by Magnus, and Annabeth is his cousin, so it ties in more closely to the Greek series.

But after you read enough of them, they get kinda formulaic. Teenagers empowered by ancient gods, going on hilarious quests, saving the world again and again...but they're still fun.

As for an African series? Ehh...does Africa have much of a unified mythology?

African cultures are always lumped together even though they're actually very diverse. It would be better to focus on a specific culture from the continent of Africa, and make sure you don't just call it 'African'

Well I'm no expert in the subject, but as a Brazilian with some interest what I can tell you is that it's commonly called Candomblé (Can-dom-bleh, with emphasis on the bleh), derived largely from African Iorubá tradition.

It tends to be housed in places called Terreiros (Tehr-reh-ih-ros), and the general practice is based around the worship of Orixás (oh-rhee-tchahs), who are basically the Loa of Voodoo tradition (that is, entities of great power tha intercede between higher powers and mankind, for good and ill) via the use of a Preacher of sorts called Mãe de Santo ("Mother of Saint") or Pai de Santo ("Father of Saint").

This "Preacher" has the task of communicating with the Orixás, and often is posessed by them or other spirits to relay messages during rituals.

Rituals often include singing, dancing, the Father/Mother of Saint being posessed by a higher being to deliver advice, warnings or other general information, and people asking the spirit (via the mother/father of saint) for aid.

Worship is primarily based on promises and offerings. In that you promise somethings to the Orixás in hope they give you something in return, or offer something of them in return. A common practice is offering Iemanjá (ih-eh-man-jah, emphasis on the jah), the female master of the seas, offerings (like food and money) by sending little boats to the open sea so Iemanjá will take it.

The practice of tarot reading is often associated with Candomblé, and it's very common to see a Mother of Father of Saint who also reads tarot.

The practice of dark magic (meaning, requesting the aid of the darker Orixás and/or requesting the aid of the Orixás to fuck people up) is often called Macumba (mah-cuhm-bah) and it's frequently associated with cursing people with a streak of bad luck. The term Macumba is also negatively used to refer to the whole religion by more fundamentalist folks.

Memorably, Candomblé survived persecution by blending with Catholicism, which is means the two religions are relatively compatible in the modern day. The Orixás, the interveeing deities, are conflated with Saints and the "higher power" is often said to be the Christian God. Most evidently, Iemanjá the lady of the waters is merged with the Virgin Mary and Ogun, Orixá of war and general manly things, is merged with St. George the Dragonslayer.

As a sort of result the religion tends to be very interconnected and there's a lot of overlap, and most of the Candomblé community also practices Catholicism or at least respects it, while the Catholic community tends to treat Candomblé (in my experience) with either fear or respect. It's not uncommon for a normal Catholic person to resort to Candomblé in particularly desperate situations (often to find a husband or wife), and for that to be treated as normal.

As a result, the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Candomblé community (after a few centuries of oppression) tends to be more or less civil nowadways. The prejudice remains, with a lot of Christians treating Candomblé as the Devil's work, but it's relatively mild.

However, there is a significant spark of conflict when it comes between several Neo-Charismatic Evangelical Churches (a movement that has been gaining political strenght as of late) and Candomblé. In some states, it's been reported Evangelical Christians have been actually vandalizing the places of worship of the Candomblé and driving them away with violent methods, going full witchhunt on them.

That's what comes to mind. I might be wrong in some things.

From what I understand this kind of viewpoint was employed by jesuits and other religious orders as a a catechism tactic to make africans more willing to convert to catholicism, and also doubled as slaves being free to practice their religions and preserve their culture while placating priests and society as a whole.

it's one of the examples of brazilian culture generally being a huge melting pot.

edited 8th Nov '15 8:13:41 PM by wehrmacht

Africa is not one big family.

That is a huge freaking land mass that has between 52-54 countries on it currently. It's history is massive and peoples diverse.

Pick a culture.

You want hippie utopia? Military glory? Nature spirits? Monotheism, animism, polytheism, cult worship, rites, meditation, oral tradition, vocal chanting, written tradition...

Whatever you want can be found there.

I would suggest you pick a country and go from there in narrowing your search for folklore and faith.

Also, a pox on anybody who tells you "Africa didn't have a written history or culture". The number of times "geometric, symbolic carvings — probably linked to religious rites — meaning unclear" show up...

So they used mats, beads, drums, pots, masks, spoons, bottle calabash and, occasionally, cave walls: doesn't mean it was all "ritual art".

A reminder: Ethiopia, Egypt and parts of what is now Tunisia, the Sudan and Niger. Cradle of pictorial and phonetic script. Suck it. (Egypt got lucky with papyrus. It's not that easy to find outside the Nile system. Even the Great Lakes don't have the subspecies that papers-up nicely. Add the conditions: good luck storing wood-based written objects outside a desert.)

edited 9th Nov '15 12:18:59 AM by Euodiachloris

@De Marquis This thread could use a little more movement.

Just drop the questions you want to ask there.

@Keybreak:

Eh, I think I should've been clearer by what I meant by "African mythology". Again, there's a frequent problem of mixing all of Africa together as a single, unified blob, when that's very far from the truth. I meant an African mythology, and gave as an example yoruba mythology. While I actually couldn't explain to you how it works, if I read or listen to someone else's explanation I can remember what I do know, like the gods.

Also I just realized this was all a stupid idea anyways because Egypt is already in Africa -_-' That's what I get for trying to think while being sick after a shitty night of sleep, bleh

Yeah, the West is aware of African mythology from the bit of Africa closest to Europe where the land bridge is. Anything further west or south is just ???

edited 9th Nov '15 5:55:28 AM by Elfive