RWBY General Discussion

It is. It's actually the equivalent of Ozma's own first action. Ruby's position in Volume 7 is equivalent to Ozma's position during his first reincarnation. Ruby went into Atlas not sure how much she should trust Ironwood and therefore decided to withhold information until she had a better feel for how to truly play it. Ozma did the exact same thing when he first encountered Salem: he also wasn't sure how much he should trust her, and therefore decided to withhold information until he had a better feel for how to truly play it.

In both cases, they eventually came clean at a badly timed moment and both did it because they felt it had to now. The only difference is the circumstance in which the truth came out: Ozma did it because he hoped the truth would prevent something worse from coming to pass while it superficially appears that Ruby did it because she thought that Ironwood was finally ready to face the truth.

However, when Oscar was alone with Ironwood, we get a sign of what Oscar and Ruby may have really been thinking: Oscar says they wanted to tell the truth in the hope of preventing Ironwood from going down a worse path (his comment about feeling that Ironwood needed to know before he made any sacrifices)... that's very similar to Ozma deciding to tell Salem the truth to also prevent her making sacrifices. In both cases, that term 'sacrifice' is referring to the lives of other people.

I think it's a taster. It's a small taste for both Ruby and Ironwood of what it's like to wear Ozpin's shoes.

I think it's a bit like this:

It's very easy for the other characters to sit on the sidelines criticising everything that Ozpin does and doesn't do. It's very much harder to actually be in his position, juggling all that weight, doubt, fear and pressure without crumbling. Then you have to add everyone's expectations on top of that, along with their criticism, doubt, challenges, etc.

To date, what we've been witnessing is how people crumble and fall apart after experiencing — for just a short period of time — the knowledge, weight and pressure that Ozma's been forced to carry for longer than they've all been alive. To know how hard it is to carry that without being ground down after even a short period, should give some insight into

I think she'll be cautious of him, but she'll give him a fair hearing and understand a little better the position he's been in. However, she'll also maintain her leadership position — there's absolutely no way Ozpin will be coming back as their leader. I also expect certain others to be much less tolerant of his return, at least for a while, and possibly even be critical of Ruby should she be more tolerant than they feel. While Yang may be one of these (she might surprise us, but she'd be an obvious choice based on past events), Qrow is probably the big one to watch out for. Qrow's reaction to the truth is what broke Ozpin and made him flee; I think Qrow's reaction to Ozpin's return is therefore going to be the most important one.

The real question will how the heroes treat Oscar once they know that Ozpin's active inside his head again. He's suffered directly when others have lashed out at Ozpin.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 10th 2020 at 1:12:35 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

You mean that one time in V6 where Jaune starts yelling at Oscar and shoves him against a wall? Or was that different?

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr

Honeslty I do think that the heroes are going through that, being in Oz's shoes, particularly Ruby. Wich will hopefully lead to them emphasizing with him more.

My only disagreement is the thing of Ironwood going through a 'See how you do' thing because it implies the issue with James is that he can't do good in Ozpins position because Oz job was harder then he thought.

He can do better, he could even have Foiled Salems whole plan(Wich is what causes Salem to switch gears to Atlas to start with). His problem isn't that Ozpins job was just way too hard, it's James own many, many character flaws and not listening to anyone coming to bite him in the ass.

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Qrow punched Oscar, Jaune slammed him into the wall, but also raised the point about whether they'd even know if Ozpin was in control of Oscar and wanted to hide that fact. In the airship, on the way to Mantle, when they learned Ozpin had helped Oscar crash-land the ship, Jaune's immediate concern was whether Ozpin had taken control of Oscar while Yang's immediate concern was whether Ozpin's been spying on them all this time.

Both reactions were entirely in keeping with how they've behaved in the past; Jaune's reaction seemed to come across more as concern for Oscar than themselves - a reversal of his reaction in the house, but completely in line with his later guilt and apology. Yang sounded like she wanted to pick a fight, which is in keeping with what happened when Ozpin first disappeared — she wanted him dragged back because she wanted a fight with him and, when it became clear he wouldn't be coming back, she targeted Maria for a fight instead.

I never claimed other people can't do good in Ozpin's shoes. I said they can't understand what it's like to be in his position until they're actually in his position.

A person's character — their flaws, their strengths, their weaknesses, their resilience — is a huge part of how they handle the weight of responsibility that great leadership burden carries with it. It's not enough to have a good idea. That doesn't make you the better leader. Anyone in a team has the potential to contribute a great plan, and the ideas very often don't come from the leader.

If Ironwood doesn't have that capacity because of personality flaws then, yes, the job is 'too hard' for him to do.[1]

Also, more importantly, other characters have the 'luxury' of stepping away if it comes down to it. Ozma never can. He has to carry the burden whether or not other people want to or can.

[1] Remember, the God of Light said that Ozma would be made immortal in the way he is to ensure he was never alone. The burden of Ozma's responsibility is too great for any one person to bear alone. It was never meant to be carried alone. This is why the person who will be right for the 'leadership' role right now is Ruby... that's also not going to be about ideas or plans; that's about support. The reason Buffy was the most successful Slayer was because she had a team; she didn't do it alone. It's the same here. Everyone else we've seen take the burden (even for a moment) has tried to shoulder it alone. It's the mistake they share with Ozma himself. You don't do it alone. You do it together.

That's why Oscar tried to tell Ironwood not to keep it all to himself. Ironwood was so busy trying to avoid making Leo's mistake that he made Ozpin's mistake instead (Ozpin's real mistake, that is, not the mistake he thought Ozpin made).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 10th 2020 at 1:43:18 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Huh, that ...makes a lot of sense. Good to know.

So where do you think the show will go with that angle? We're probably gonna see more focus on Salem, and that'll probably translate to the main cast prodding Ozpin for more background info about his relationship with her, what he knows about her weaknesses, et cetera, so I wouldn't be surprised if Oscar gets caught in the middle of that. He is serving as Ozpin's bike rack, after all.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr

And that is why Jaune will always be better than Yang. He actually can separate his anger and shows more concern for the situation going on rather than wallow in grudges, as well as own up to his faults and apologize for them. Jaune really is becoming a Cool Big Bro for Oscar isn't he?

He's more than Oz's bike rack at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if now instead of just Oz taking control of Oscar, it'll keep switching back and form nigh-instantaneously and allow both to contribute, even if to the outside it looks like a kid is arguing with himself.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 10th 2020 at 8:33:38 AM

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"My only disagreement is the thing of Ironwood going through a 'See how you do' thing because it implies the issue with James is that he can't do good in Ozpins position because Oz job was harder then he thought.

"

Ozpin job IS way harder than he though, it mean make aliance, thinking what you can share or to who, can robyn really be trusted of she will broke like raven, or is theodore is also a sleeper agent like Lioheart? who else salem have in her payroll? James understimated the nature about Salem and now he pick a fight he is clearly unprepated now.

Salem recognize Ironwood as treat, or rather that Ozpin could undone the job she have made by united theodore and james, but that is hardly to said "all this can easly be averted".

I dont think jaune have totally forgive Ozpin, is more that he know oscar is inocent in all this, you can said is more "did ozpin force you do to something?" which is line with his original worry.

Edited by unknowing on Aug 10th 2020 at 8:37:09 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

That's what I was referring to. He actually apologized to Oscar for treating him poorly while pissed at Ozpin, Yang meanwhile hasn't done jack in regards to how she treated Oscar, yelling at him and trying to force him to drag Ozpin back out when it was clear Oscar is innocent in all this.

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And Qrow didn't apologize for decking him in the face.

Which episode is this? If we're having a discussion about it, I think I need to know what it is to participate.

Flat "What". Actually? Does she actually do that? How awful. That is horrid of her, poor Oscar.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr

While not a direct apology, the fight against the Colossus and introduction to Ironwood suggest that things are cool between the two now. At least Qrow's actions, while still bad, are more understandable since he was going through a mental breakdown. And there so far don't seem to be any hard feelings between the two, since he offered to give Oscar support in getting a "Bird's Eye View" and told Ironwood Oscar was the "New Oz" without speaking derisively.

• RWBY V6E4 "So That's How It Is": After seeing the events of RWBY V6E3 "The Lost Fable", Ozpin reveals that, no, he doesn't have a plan to kill Salem. Qrow proceeds to deck Ozcar in the face and declares him a Broken Pedestal, saying how no one wanted him and that Ozpin pretty much gave his life meaning, saying now that meeting Ozpin was the worst luck in his life. Ozpin then goes into self-imposed exile inside Oscar's mind, and Yang walks up to the injured and confused Oscar yelling "That bastard! Tell him we're not done yet!". While Weiss and Blake begin to express worry at Ozpin abandoning them and Oscar laments how he hates what's going on, Maria tells everyone to get a hold of themselves, only for Yang to try and pick a fight with her, Maria stopping her before she can begin. Maria then helps Oscar up and tells them to follow the trail so they don't freeze to death.
• RWBY V6E8 "Dead End": After being turned away by Cordovin and Qrow leaving to drown his sorrows some more, RWBY tells JNR about what they learned, and Jaune cracks his sister's wall in frustration saying their quest has been All for Nothing. When Oscar tries to say they're not the bad guys, Jaune is skepticle and starts approaching Oscar. While Weiss tries to tell Jaune to calm down and say Oscar is innocent, Jaune accuses Oscar of still being Ozpin but just pretending to be in exile, and that they can't even trust if Oscar is even still him anymore. Ruby yells at him to knock it off and Jaune leaves in frustration before a split second look of "What am I doing?". The end of the episode has them learn from Blake that Oscar's gone missing.
• RWBY V6E9 "Lost": After going out to look for Oscar, Jaune comes across Pyrrha's memorial statue and talks with both the "Red Haired Woman" and Nora and Ren, and comes to realize they can't just stop now. When they get back to his sister's place, they all discover Oscar was just doing some soul searching and buying a new outfit, and first thing Jaune does after glomping him is apologize for his behavior.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 10th 2020 at 9:10:10 AM

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Did he even know about Leo being a Salem plant back then? Or even after Leo died?

James issues with trusting others is largely, again, thanks to his own issues regarding being a Control Freak, he was fine trusting his specialists like the Ace Ops and winter who follow his orders without question with the information. And she was a Huntress who went to the same acadamy as all of them.

She dosent display anger at Oscar really....she calls Ozpin a coward and says to Oscar "Get him back out here!" Before Oscar reveals this was something more serious then before.

misremebrrembed the exact dialogue. But still I don't think that's her being angry at Oscar or putting him through something.

Edited by Kylotrope on Aug 10th 2020 at 2:50:06 AM

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I do like the relationship dynamic between JNR and Oscar. It does feel like he's slotted in with them quite naturally and in a way that's completely different to Pyrrha's place in the team. And it is partially because of Jaune's struggle at the end of Volume 6. Nora pretty much adopted him as the little brother she's never had from very early on, while Jaune's taken longer to grow into the role of big brother. The only relationship left in JNR that's mostly ill-defined is Ren, but Ren's been very inside his own head in Volume 7.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Kylo:Because he have the situation "under control" and for that it seen calm, part of ozpin job is to deal with the unknowable: how to trust in each person, if their capable and trustable, after all is a secret war and part of that is no everything is easier epxlain by some, specially as the truth take is toll.

Which is quite is incapable of leading, Ironwood plan to deal with the secret war is....not fighting it but instead trying to make a open one, in part because he also hold the idea salem is a beatable antagonist in a direct manner.

Also Ironwood did trust RWBY from most part, including in the plan, let them kept the relic, and others, he can trust but he cant deal with uncerinity.

Edited by unknowing on Aug 10th 2020 at 8:52:10 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Jeez, I never knew Yang's lack-of-Character Development got this bad. I'll watch the episode to get the context and then get back here.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr

And that's something I know I've harped on several times, in regard to Ironwood. He lacks genuine support, and that is what doomed him to failure. Ironwood is a General in a strict military structure, surrounded by people that blindly obey him without question. Winter and the Ace-Ops are loyal to him, but they are not the kinds of people that Ironwood needed.

Ozpin accepted into his inner circle people that didn't always agree with him, that challenged him or offered differing opinions. And that was the ideal he taught at Beacon, through forming teams that seemed randomly assigned but required people to decide to work together. He forced them to work through their issues, and learn to cooperate with each other. They came out of it stronger, for having reached a point of trusting each other enough to disagree and compromise.

Ozpin stumbled along the way in his own lesson, but he's taught it will to the next generation.

Ironwood needed people (like Robyn!) that are on the same side, but aren't subordinates that will blindly do whatever he says. He needed people that would disagree with him, that would offer alternate ideas, that would force him to work as part of a team. Because as I've said many times, Ironwood is at his absolute best when he's part of a genuine team and cooperating with others. When it isn't just him being in charge, and telling other people what to do. He's an incredible Support, but his need to be in control and be OBEYED is a big issue.

We don't know anything about Haven's structure, but it's probably fair to say that Lionheart was just as alone as Ironwood. That he didn't have a supportive group around him, since he had been working for Salem for so long. He didn't have people to notice there was a problem. Ironwood didn't have people that could call him on his shit.

The novels show Theodore seems so far to be doing better, at least in on that particular front. He has Rumpole to temper him and share the burdens, and he's willing to trust the students with things. His mistake come the Vacuo Arc will probably be something else.

Edited by harostar on Aug 10th 2020 at 9:01:17 AM

I finally thought of a good way to word this....James issue is less having underestimated Salem and more having Overestimated his solutions effectiveness. There are solutions and ways to beat Salem that aren't much harder per say then what he was doing. Salem had to put a ton of effort into working things out and required a good deal of stuff to happen, such as his actions. And even then also required intelligent people to help with the little details like Cinder does.(Cinder was the one who recruited Emerald Wich was a big part of things, and came up with the specifics such as the penny and Phyrra thing, and the Roman stuff seems to largely be her own idea)

His belief that Salem was just a far greater threat then he anticipated as opposed to his own solutions sucking leads to him Doubling down on said solutions. Wich of course, helps Salem more as he's not just taking into account that there are other ways to handle this.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

That is because ironwood cant have a good suport because he need to disern and that kind of skill come from working with people for so long, which is why ozpin better quality and why it was told to work with their host: by understanding it, he can understand people and guide them, Ironwood dosent have this and it kinda totally show.

After all, sometimes not all is logic and you need to take jump of faith based on heart along, that is something James dosent want to do and probably is biggest fear.

Edited by unknowing on Aug 10th 2020 at 9:06:40 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Hence, Ironwood is actually kind of.....a really bad CO, if you think about it. People skills are absolutely vital to good leadership, including being able to understand and get a good read on people. It makes me wonder about the structure of the Atlas military, that some of its highest-ranked officers are kind of.....enormously foolish. Ironwood is paranoid and constantly shoots himself in the foot, Cordovin is a joke, and it doesn't seem like most of their military people have their shit together.

Even the Ace-Ops, the elite of the elite, are kind of.....chumps that make bad decisions and rely heavily on Clover's semblance to help them. Winter has daddy issues like whoa, and has just exchanged one over-controlling father figure for another.

Their technology and the rest of the world being a mess post-war is really the only thing Atlas has going for them.

Interesting detail pointed out elsewhere: Atlas-trained folks seem to as a whole have a major issue with relying heavily on their Semblances and burning through Aura really fast. Flynt and Neon at the tournament, Ironwood vs Watts, Winter spamming summons in all her fights, the Ace-Ops burning through their Auras, even Weiss has had to unlearn that behavior. It seems like something that is taught in their combat schools.

Edited by harostar on Aug 10th 2020 at 9:17:31 AM

Honestly, the one Ace-Op they put down all the time is probably the one with the best people skills. Marrow is the one who bonded closest to the group, and while he is a bit immature, he can easily be civil and professional when the situation calls for it, as demonstrated when confronted by May and Robyn at the rally. Hell, just look at when was showing them the mission board, he makes a point to note that while escorting kids to primary school isn't as glamorous as hunting Grimm, it's still an important job, and tries say Jaune picking it is commendable... it's just he didn't know Jaune's name at the time so it lost some of its effectiveness. (Juan? Jwan? Jim?)

Hell, it's even noted in Amity Arena that part of the reason Penny was made the protector of Mantle is, in spite of her having No Social Skills, she was still the most personable for the job.

So they made Penny the protector because she's personable... yet they actively try to shut down others who are. Think about it, Clover may be kind, but he's still a By-the-Book Cop. Elm is cheerful, but she's resigned herself to Just Following Orders. Vine is pretty much reserved most of the time, and Harriet is... Harriet.

How is Watts and Ironwood an example? We don't even know their Semblances and their aura only broke from constantly getting shot at and taking damage.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 10th 2020 at 9:32:40 AM

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Yeah, Marrow really is the best with people in many ways. He isn't as polished and slick as Clover, but there's an honesty to him and he's the one that is most uneasy about everything. Clover and Elm being veterans are very good at dropping personal connections the instant their orders require it, which is interesting how those are the two we get the contrasting statements with at the beginning and the end of the volume. Elm apologizing for the arrest, Clover readily accepting them solely because he trusts Ironwood with his life. We end up seeing its all sides of the same coin, flipping a switch on how they treat people based on Ironwood's say-so.

I used Ironwood and Watts solely because we see that Ironwood's plan seems to come down to "just tank it" as opposed to actually trying to manage Aura. Which may indicate how his students are trained, since managing their Auras seems to be an issue across the board in Atlas. There's a lot of flash and overwhelming force, but none of them are able to handle a prolonged fight. As I said, even Weiss has that issue hence her reputation as the one that always loses her fights — she doesn't manage Aura as well as the rest of the team.

Edited by harostar on Aug 10th 2020 at 9:37:15 AM

Even then the other examples don't work out so well.

• Flynt's Killer Quartet is only used twice, and the other times he just uses his Trumpet on its own.
• Neon's never had her Semblance revealed, and the "Rainbow Trail" has so far been nothing but a stylistic choice since it doesn't seem to do anything.
• Marrow doesn't use his Semblance that much in favor of using Fetch.
• Elm's Semblance just keeps her stable, so she only uses it when she can't afford to move and otherwise is unreliant on it.
• Weiss is a Squishy Wizard, since outside of her Semblance her only weapon is a Saber which doesn't hold up well against larger weapons of more skilled swordsmen.

Fighting styles based on a Semblance isn't necessarily a bad thing, since we've seen non Atlesians fight using their Semblance or having their weapons complement their Semblances such as Velvet's Mimicry and Glynda's Telekinesis. It's just being purely reliant and not having a fallback that's the issue.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Purely reliant is probably a good way to phrase it. There seems to be a flaw to the method folks learn in Atlas, in terms of them being frequent victims of The Worf Effect in the series.

It just again makes me want more novels set in the other kingdoms, to explore the differences in teaching and culture. We got Beacon vs Shade from the perspective of CFVY and how those two Academies have very different methods. Atlas seems to have a very appropriately military style, with them using overwhelming force and trying to finish a fight quickly but struggling if forced into a prolonged battle or otherwise forced to improvise and adapt in the moment.

Edited by harostar on Aug 10th 2020 at 9:46:37 AM

Have they been subjected to The Worf Effect though? The only one I can think of is Weiss since she tended to always lose up until her fight with Marrow. And, well, every fight we've seen other Atlesian's in can't really be called to have suffered from The Worf Effect.

• Qrow was just toying around fighting Winter and deliberately surrendered to make Winter look bad in front of Ironwood.
• Flynt beat Weiss and only lost to Yang because he's a ranged fighter while she's both ranged and close quarters.
• Neon was pretty much running circles around Yang until Yang beating Flynt ruined the terrain and caused her to trip up.
• Penny's lose/first death was because of Emerald's illusion forcing Pyrrha to overclock her Semblance, and a robot facing magnetism is not a good combo.
• Flynt vs. Jaune, Ren vs. Ivori, and Oscar vs. Kobalt were resolved off-screen via the montage, and Neon got smashed by Nora while being blocked by the others.
• Robyn kept Blake and Yang back while they were chasing her and was able to hold them off despite them having the number advantage.
• Clover, Robyn, and Qrow all took down Tyrian while he was in the alley.
• Ironwood beat Watts handily before Watts deployed his rings, and even then Ironwood beat him by flaying his arm and dragging Watts across the ground.
• Harriet more accurately beat herself since even while tied up she was matched with Ruby and required being subjected to Inertia Is a Cruel Mistress to be beaten.
• Marrow wasn't even trying that hard since most of his actions were reactionary since he didn't want to fight Weiss.
• It took Tyrian and Qrow double teaming Clover just to break his aura, and he was only killed because he and Qrow were distracted by their emotional baggage giving Tyrian the opportunity to impale him with Harbinger.
• Penny and Winter were holding their own against Cinder, an actual Maiden, and Penny only abandoned the fight to save Winter from falling to death after Cinder broke her aura, and Cinder only hurt Winter so much afterward due to Penny getting the Winter Maiden powers and turning feral for a bit.

The only fight with Atlesians I'd say had The Worf Effect outside of ones with Weiss was Vine and Elm vs. Yang and Blake, since I've gone to hell and back explaining why I think that fight was horrid.

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I'm really curious to learn what Robyn and James relationship is. Given its very likely he was her headmaster.

One part of me was wondering if his treatment of rwbyjnr in this volume was, while nice and well meaning also partially manipulative in a way, in the sense of giving all these cool new things, subtly making them reliant on James.

My idea was that this was sort of how things went at Atlas acadamy, it's mentioned students would be pressured into joining the military in Wo R. So one thought I had was that it would involve stuff like what James does with the main Charachters, giving all this cool new stuff Wich makes them 'Trust' Ironwood and be willing to do what he says more.

It might tie into how James yells 'Loyalty ALWAYS matters' even though they weren't his soliders, he creates a sort of situation where he expects people to feel they 'Owe' him there loyalty.

Edited by Kylotrope on Aug 10th 2020 at 4:08:42 AM

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