RWBY General Discussion

I think the latter given how these songs reflect lines said in the show and it makes more sense for him to say "children can't win the war".

I think he says that in either version.

The big difference is either he's questioning whether Ozpin can honestly believe in the kids, or he's decrying the concept of honesty itself.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 5th 2020 at 12:09:05 PM

Kaze ni Nare!

We got another new card in RWBY: Amity Arena, the Centinels. And... their description makes the Ace-Ops and RNJRWBY's take down of them a lot less impressive. They basically pests, not much stronger than Creeps. And reminder, Oscar could kill Creeps on his own before he got Ozma.

Yeah, these things are pretty much like their namesake: giant annoying centipedes. And I can testify to centipedes being annoying, since they just love to pop out of the walls and floor and just scurry about before I have to squash them with my shoe.

It's the latter. It's a Call-Back to Ozpin's talk with Ironwood back in RWBY V2 E2 "Welcome to Beacon":

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 5th 2020 at 9:16:46 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Dear Amity Arena, when you gonna give us a design for another book-specific character? (Theo plz!)

Interesting that they're considered frightening as opposed to actually dangerous. They're not hard to kill individually, just difficult to completely exterminate a nest and a bunch of living jump scares.

Edited by harostar on Aug 5th 2020 at 9:12:08 AM

You bring this up a lot, and you're right that Yang did hate her, but I think you draw the exact wrong conclusion from that. Yang hated her because she loved her. The arc parallels that of Raven, right to the contrasting paths they take at the end of V5; what does it say about what Blake meant to her that she yearns for her as much as her own mother? (Also probably not a coincidence her mother has wings.) As I said when the V5 soundtrack hit, "All That Matters" is bitter as hell, but a bitter love song is what it is.

To be honest, I would almost say that's the one part they got right. Where they screwed up is in the groundwork, and in the next volume, where they go straight from this to this.

I'm pretty sure that it is "believe in honesty," with "in honesty" meant in the sense of "in all honesty," or "in earnest," not "believe in [the concept of] honesty [and] that your children will win a war."

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.

I saw a good post on the Faunas Subplot regarding Blake and Sienna

https://swapauanon.tumblr.com/post/625668987227914240/hi-may-i-ask-white-fang-leaders-potential

Things are really about to get Fun around here

while that post is right, the hate didn't come from humanity to them but from themselves, she seriously expect Adam to laid down and only unleash his agresiveness when needed, battle start when you wanted, never stop when you ask for it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Well, I mean...Adam was a murderous psychopath that hurt EVERYONE around him. He didn't want equality, he didn't actually care about his fellow Faunus. He wanted, as his image song declares, to be worshiped and adored.

He was perfectly willing to kill other Faunus without a second thought. Someone pointed out the SDC employs a lot of Faunus as cheap labor. Meaning the crew he wanted to kill in the Black trailer were quite possibly Faunus. The crew of a cargo train are likely to be lower tier employees, so he knew could very well be Faunus stuck with shitty jobs.

Edited by harostar on Aug 5th 2020 at 2:48:59 PM

Lionize and Hero are interesting songs to listen to back to back. Both paint pictures of wannabe saviors consumed by their own delusions and hubris.

The big difference to me is that Lionize sounds more... honest. Adam knows exactly what he wants from his followers. He wants to be loved and heralded as a savior. He sees nothing wrong with that. It's what he deserves in his opinion.

Ironwood still wants to believe that he's a selfless, noble-hearted man doing the right thing, even as fate conspires him into ever more terrible positions. He insists that he doesn't care what people think of him, and says he'll gladly suffer their barbs in the name of safeguarding them from harm. Yet he still demands their trust. So he does care what people think, he's just in denial.

I'd argue Ironwood is more delusional than Adam. Adam's delusion was in how his sense of self related to the world around him. Ironwood's delusion is that AND what his own sense of self even really is.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 7:31:41 PM

Kaze ni Nare!

That's Honeslty a really good run down

It would be interesting if they drew contrasts with Watts(Who's motivation is said to be 'Reverance')and James. With James repeating more of his 'I don't care what they think' at Wich point Watts pulls an Atleast I Admit It towards James.(A little like the 'Who are you trying to convince?' Scene from Volume 5)

Things are really about to get Fun around here

Yeah one can said Adam and Ironwood have kinda sorta the same problem in general but in the diferent ways: Adam feel like a hero because the strenght to be one and therefore deserve to be praise for it.

Ironwood is more about taking ozpin role to defend mankind against salem and how it will take everything to do it, so he kinda demand other to do as well.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Ironwoods issue isn't really how far he'll go to defend mankind. Its how much humanity, in more ways then one, slowly stops mattering to him. Hence him being willing to let the entire world be at Salems mercy so his city could be safe.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

Speaking of Ironwood, I'm hearing that they confirmed his Semblance at some point? I am asking the person for their source on that information. So if/when there is a response, I will update with confirmation.

Well this is a great breakdown

https://luimnigh.tumblr.com/post/625742046531092480/huh-i-never-even-thought-about-making-comparisons

Things are really about to get Fun around here

That's being way too unfair to Ironwood. Adam is a delusional madman, but he is in no way more honest than Ironwood.

• "Lionize" describes Adam as someone who wants to be a "messiah" to the Faunus, but in truth, Adam is just a tyrant, someone who wants to flip the script and make humans subserviant to the Faunus, but even that is just window dressing for his true desire of power and control. He may have cared about the cause at one time, but by Volume 6 the goal of the Faunus was no longer in his mind, it was all about him. Even perfectly willing to slaughter the forces he lead after they back-sassed him to pursue petty vengeance on Blake.
• "Hero" describes Ironwood as someone who wants to protect the people around him and keep them safe at any cost even if said cost is his image or humanity, which is a large portion of Ironwood's fall from grace. Ironwood is a bit of a hypocrite since his rant towards Oscar makes it clear he was tired of being ignored by the others when "only he knows whats right", but he is still ultimately doing this out of a misguided belief that he's protecting people and trying to stop Salem. Even when everyone is turning on him though, he sticks to his principles and stays the course, but only seeks to exert control and will sacrifice whatever it takes to do so.

Adam is someone who claims to have principles and be something he's not when he's really just a delusional madman who abandons any pretense when pushed far enough. Ironwood is someone who has principles and is trying to be something he isn't and genuinely believes in what he's doing.

You also need to keep in mind when the songs are played, and how they are sung from stanza to stanza.

• "Lionize" was played during Adam's Character Short, first during his fight with the bandits, then at the SDC compound. The fight with the bandits was ultimately his Start of Darkness, the point where he stops caring about the cause and only cares about himself, hence why the lyrics there are more about him having the "Strength to do whats needed". The fight at the SDC compound however was when he was fully immersed in his delusions, hence why the lyrics were of him denouncing prior leaders as "too weak to take the prize" that need to be replaced and how they need to "turn the table on who's tyrannized".
• "Hero" was played during Ironwood's fight with Watts, and the stanza there is a mix between "Guardian" and "Authoritarian", since that was the mindset Ironwood was stuck between, someone focused more on the people, or someone focused more on control. When the song begins, it's initially Ironwood in the "Guardian" mindset, since it's more about Ironwood saying he would "die without regret", how he'd "offer up my life with zero reservations", since he's saying he'd sacrifice himself to protect others. But as the fight goes on, it slips into the "Authoritarian", suddenly speaking of how he is "might", how he is "power", and how he will "smite".

"Lionize" is largely a song detailing Adam's Start of Darkness and journey to becoming a monster. "Hero" however is a song reflective of Ironwood's inner conflict, how he wants to be a "Guardian" but is held back by being an "Authoritarian", yet thinks being more like the latter is how he'll be the former.

So no, the songs are not suggestive of Ironwood and Adam being alike. Adam was a man who became a monster and relished in it. Ironwood is a man trying to be a hero, unaware he's slowly losing his humanity in the process. If anything, they're opposites, since Adam had embraced what he was becoming, Ironwood resists trying to become a monster but is failing.

To think Ironwood is in any way a lot like Adam is an insult to his character really, especially when Volume 7 went to great lengths to demonstrate that Ironwood, for all his fuckups, is ultimately just a broken man desperate to protect the people he cares about, and is becoming He Who Fights Monsters in the process, while Adam was a monster in humanoid skin, any traces of his humanity dead after being branded as a kid, and so consumed by his own hedonism he is willing to burn the world to the ground if something doesn't go his way.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 6th 2020 at 11:50:42 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

They arent Simmular in the sense of Ironwood being as bad as Adam, yet, but there are simularities.

Adam was also a good person dealing with horrible trauma, but steadily grew darker, with his ego and Desire to be people's saviour slowly eating away at anything left that was good.

Even with the things on 'When the songs are played', The fight with the bandits wasn't when Adam Stopped caring about the cause, it was After/At the end of the fight when the Faunas started praising him that he started to head down that path(And even then, there were numerous more 'Acidents' before it became 'Self defense' before it became 'Justice'), at this point Adam hadn't really done anything wrong(Killing that one guy was completely justified) James song plays in the fight that was in the episode he finally decided to abandon both Mantle and Remnant if it means saving his city. In both cases it's there last fights before they go down the dark path.

James is currently in the 'Mid' phase of Jumping Off the Slippery Slope. With Adam having long jumped off before the show started

Think of Adam as the worst case Scenario for James.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

The thing with Adam is that we never see "good" Adam ever in the show, he was a dick who become a bigger dick until he die, which why the impression of him is he was never good, he is pretty much kylo ren, but furry.

Also Adam wants glory and recogniztion, meanwhile Ironwood does not(I mean he already have atlas so probably he dosent care about it), he wants to beat Salem at any cost, to the point he forget WHY he does so, if he sacrifice his humanity to stop her, them it matter not why he beat her.

you know, classic "who it fight with monster" stuff.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

You can have your opinions on how Adam was handled but we're discussing the show itself.

He Who Fights Monsters was a thing with Adam too, as he more or less became Jacques Faunas counterpart.

And Adams desire for glory and recognition was do to his massive savior complex, his desire to be and to be seen as the Hero. James has that too, just to a way tamer extent so far.

Edited by Kylotrope on Aug 7th 2020 at 2:00:52 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

I wasn't trying to say that Ironwood is worse than Adam. Just because I think he's more honest doesn't mean I think his ideals were any better.

Lionize doesn't really tout any lofty principles. It's just Adam going "fuck humanity, fuck faunus who don't agree with me, and worship me because I'm awesome." Reality may not agree with Adam that he is awesome, but within his own head, it's consistent. Which isn't the case with Ironwood. He's still torn about what he honestly wants. He wants to protect his people, but does he want to be trusted and seen as a hero, or does he want to do the "right thing" even if he's hated?

I think it's fair to compare the songs. They're both about delusional leaders who think of themselves as saviors. They're certainly very different, but the similarities make the differences interesting.

I feel like a lot of what you said is why I made the comparison in the first place. Adam reveling in his status as a piece of shit is why I think he's more honest.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 7th 2020 at 1:35:39 PM

Kaze ni Nare!

Kinda, Adam seen a savior because he wants the glory, you can said he have a in universe case of protagonist central morality were he is the edgy hero.

Ironwood is more "i have to do what is necesary" with necesary meaning "everything".

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Is Sun's voice actor still with Rooster Teeth? Because I feel like this might be the last we see of him on the show.

I'm also realizing that he reminds me of Tidus from Final Fantasy X.

• Shirtless blond athlete who jumps around like a monkey
• meets a reserved, yet determined 18-year old with the fate of the world on her shoulders
  • her parents are people of high reputation
  • and she so happens to be on a quest to defeat a seemingly unstoppable ancient evil

Edited by FOFD on Aug 7th 2020 at 11:57:52 AM

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

I'm absolutely DEAD.

https://psuedomonas-aeruginosa.tumblr.com/post/625665825482948608/this-is-the-funniest-thing-to-me

Ehh. The first, third, and fourth points are common enough tropes that they don't necessarily indicate anything meaningful. Your second point, though, bears discussion (i.e. me rambling about FFX at the slightest provocation because I love the game to death).

The "meets a reserved, yet determined 18-year-old with the fate of the world on her shoulders" bit doesn't really work. Sin isn't a world-ending threat, it's essentially a mobile natural disaster that can be beat up by a summoner and their Final Aeon whenever it inevitably resurfaces, and a summoner going on a pilgrimage to stall Sin for however-many years-it-is-this-time has become a tradition by the time of the game.

The journeys are fundamentally different, as well. In Final Fantasy X, until after the big reveal, the main party believes the lie that Sin has Resurrective Immortality, and the things they're supposed to do on the pilgrimage are explicitly laid out for them. Tons of summoners have gone on pilgrimages since the aforementioned tradition dates back a thousand years, so the main cast has a pretty good idea of what steps they need to take to follow in those footsteps.

The main cast of RWBY, by contrast, has problems because no one has attempted defeating Salem before, and they don't know what to do. They're not breaking any traditions or following the path that hundreds of others have set out for them, they're more or less flying blind.

And if we extend the parallels far enough, then I will laugh long and hard at what a stupid decision the writers made to kill Sun off, given he got Put on a Bus so hard he made a dent in the mainframe and destroyed half the seats back in Volume 6. That sort of thing utterly destroys the impact for Back for the Dead and A Death in the Limelight.

tl:dr I like FFX too much and I’m sorry if I inconvenienced anyone with all this

The show does love Expy-ing characters, which I feel the joke is criticising (personally, I'm not too fond of the practice either).

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr

I think it's more a joke on how the fandom is endlessly speculating on expys and parallels.

Plus "AUGH BEES".

...awww. :(

I mean. Salem kind of feels like that? She just summoned a giant flying whale, in fact!

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).