RWBY General Discussion

I think he, and the heroes in general, haven't yet realised what Ozpin's biggest fear is about telling the world about Salem. It's not really telling people there's an evil woman who controls the Grimm that's the problem. After all, that's the sort of people can rally around, hell it even gives the chance for hope (if this woman can be dealt with, perhaps the Grimm will be easier to deal with once she's gone). The problem is finding out the person who controls the Grimm is immortal and unkillable. That's where is hope is crushed and despair or fatalism takes hold, that's where people start to think that nothing they do will matter and humanity is ultimately doomed.

Ironwood's decision to go public was based on the belief that she can be defeated and killed — Ozpin's just been going about it in the wwrong way. Even when Ironwood went public, he initially introduced her as an impersonal force of evil. Even when he finally gendered her and clarified she was a person, he still acted like it was a case of dealing with Grimm.

That's fine, since that's a good way of quickly getting people to comprehend, and agree to do, what you want them to do when lives are depending on how fast you can get it done. But it does kick the Hope Crusher / Despair Event Horizon can down the road and leave it unresolved and hanging in the air like a bad smell.

Yes, that's pretty much how I'm interpreting it. In fact, you've uncovered my secret. I went back to the hue wheel myself when I was in the processing of deciding whether the twinst were blue or indigo to give myself the confidence of settling on the twins being indigo.

No. That's trope misuse. The trope description states that someone who's being deliberately manipulated will be other tropes (it suggests Unwitting Pawn). Otherwise, you may as well make Willow an Unwitting Instigator of Doom for falling in love with Jacques and wanting to marry him in the first place — because that happened first.

And, no, I don't think the Nicholas situation is the Unwitting Pawn trope either. The WoR episode strongly implies that Jacques took advantage of how sick Nicholas was to convince him to make Jacques the heir. We therefore don't know if Nicholas was even in the right frame of mind to make a solid decision as opposed to, for example, a desperate one.

I've wondered the same thing. We have to remember that Emerald's hallucinations aren't just visual; they're auditory, too. Coco heard 'Yatsu' speak; Amber heard the little girl crying; Yang heard Mercury speak.

Hallucinations are tricks of the mind that affect the senses. As a result, I think that, yes, Maria could be affected by Emerald's Semblance, as long as it's about tricking the mind to fool the senses. It depends on how well Maria's eyesight technology works in terms of recording reality in the face of whatever her mind may be doing. However, even if her technology protects her from the visual aspect of Emerald's Semblance, Emerald's power isn't just visual. It affects other senses, too, and I think Maria's going to be just as vulnerable on that front as anyone else.

By the same token, I would expect Fox to also be vulnerable to Emerald's Semblance, in terms of the auditory options. However, given that he relies on an AI to help him and he can use telepathy to stay in constant communication with his team, I think he has a lot of defences to help him counter any auditory hallucinations Emerald might try and make him experience.

I got the impression that Maria's eyes were greyscale from the moment she met them. Otherwise, she could have figured out before the farm that Ruby had silver eyes. The fact she didn't know without asking means she couldn't see colour prior to the farm.

Now, do I think the lack of colour was part of the malfunction of the eyes? Yes, I do. However, she did mention at the train wreck that her eyes weren't working right (along with her hearing), so I believe the colour blindness goes back further than the farm.

That video is a good example of something I've said previously about Bumblebee in Volume 7, especially the attitude of 'If they are dating, tell us. If they're not dating, tell us.' People are so used to seeing shows go from the characters ambiguously flirting because they can't spit it out to jumping in the sack with each other or otherwise unambiguously confirming they're now a couple from the moment they hit their personal realisation that they're in love with the other person. There's rarely the kind of realistic build-up that is common in real life — which is that two people who know how they feel about the other person but they're still not together and they haven't yet breached the very first hurdle (voicing it out loud). Instead, they simply start spending all their time together, doing things together and their companions all spot this and gossip about it and wonder if they're getting together or not...

While various parts of the fandom complain that the creators are back-tracking or copping out, all I'm seeing is a very big dose of Reality Is Unrealistic because this is the bit that shows often skip in favour of 'if they know how they feel, they'll immediately act on it' scenario (barring the common trop of external obstructions, such as existing partners or work place rules or military chains of command, etc.). In short, it isn't always as simple as 'just tell us if they're dating or not' because there's that in-between stage that is extremely common in real life but which many shows like to skip, making those times when shows don't skip it confusing and frustrating for audiences who aren't used to seeing it in storytelling. It's odd that this has to be pointed out in the context of that video, because she goes on to point out the flaws in shipping attitudes that there has to be physical evidence on screen that people are dating (kissing, cuddling, sex, etc.) when it's not necessary to do those things while being confirmed to be in a relationship. Pointing that out is good, but if she's aware enough of that, then she should be aware of the 'in between' aspect of storytelling relationships, too.

I also think the idea that two characters are stagnating solely because their canonical shipping status is unconfirmed is making the very mistake they're accusing the show of making (that the characters are incapable of any kind of growth outside of shipping, or their feelings for a specific person). For example, while we have no confirmation on the Bumblebee ship, we are seeing Yang and Blake exploring their boundaries and limitations of what they're willing to tolerate as Huntresses who are supposed to be upholding the ideals that Huntresses are supposed to represent. They draw on both their dislike of Ozpin's secret-keeping, their discomfort with Ruby's near-identical secret-keeping, Ironwood's morally ambiguous decisions, and their experience with Adam and how the situation with Adam ended, to figure out their individual limits with the situation they're in, the fact that they can discuss this and reach a shared position, and then act on their shared beliefs.

There is character growth for Yang and Blake in Volume 7. But that growth is about the kind of Huntresses they want to be. It's not directly about shipping. And I say 'directly' there because there is indirect growth in terms of their relationship. Blake and Yang realise they're not really in the same place where keeping secrets from Ironwood is concerned: Yang is much more bothered about it than Blake is, which is consistent for Yang — she's been bothered about secrets ever since her V5 chat with her mother. What Blake is bothered about is how they're treating Robyn given Robyn's own ideals and goals, which makes sense for Blake's own character history, given how she felt about the White Fang, Ilia and Adam. That discussion about both subjects allows Yang to figure out a 'compromise' — a solution to both their dilemmas.

It's the opposite of Blake's experience with Adam, where he would shut down her identity, beliefs, desires in favour of his own. Yang doesn't shut Blake down in favour of her own preferences, she takes both of their situations and combines them into a workable idea that suits them both: they confront Robyn with as much of the truth as they dare reveal and then allow her to escape, which opens the door to the possibility of future trust and alliance.

These moments of sharing a burden and finding compromise and solution are how relationships are built. It's how people build trust and faith in the other. It's how people have confidence that the other won't hurt them and will respect them. In short, it builds a foundation. Coming out of a situation as nasty as the Adam one, this building of respect, sharing, compromise and trust, would be a necessary development of growth. By the same token, Yang had been feeling deeply betrayed by Blake's disappearance and Volume 6 was spent with them having to rebuild a dyanmic at all, which only happened at the end of Volume 6. That means, building respect, sharing, compromise and trust is important for Yang as well as Blake.

So, moments like these aren't nothing. They're important foundations upon which future relationships are build. But, again, we may be into Reality Is Unrealistic territory here.

Miles didn't like it either (Monty and Kerry did), so the creators compromised. They named half the attacks on shipping names (Ladybug and Bumblebee) and the other half of the attacks were not (Ice Flower and Monochrome).

That said, now that I have actually seen Red vs. Blue, I can observe that the creators directly acknowledged the CarWash ship during the Singularity storyline.

I have no opinion yet beyond the observation that it looks like the novel is setting up both Coco and Sun to be given a learning curve in what makes a good leader, probably bringing each other into balance in the process (the preview implies she's too image-conscious and he's too thoughtless).

I wasn't expecting to like the first novel as much as I did, so I'm not going to fix my thoughts in stone about the second book.

Don't get me started on how Ace-Ops was defeated, and suddenly went from so wonderfully synchronised even Team RWBY, who have been using amazing synchronised attacks since Volume 2, were gushing to... being completely unable to use team work. Or, you know, having the very first act after Ironwood ordered Team RWBY's arrest being to.... order Marrow to freeze Team RWBY, cuff them and put them in prison so that no fight even had to happen in the first place.

He had the perfect Semblance for non-violent arrests, especially if he was reluctant to fight them due to conflicting feelings.

Oh, I'm fully expecting him to try and backtrack on his relationship with Nora. I've been expecting that ever since Robyn's rally was attacked while he and Nora were kissing. Neo's little mind-game throwing him completely off his stride all but guarantees it.

It'll be nice if they don't go this obvious route, but I fully expect them to go this obvious route.

Yep. I really think Team RWBY needs a big defeat and a period of regrouping. I do not want it to become the case that the other heroes are used to ensure 'heroes don't always win' to allow Team RWBY to never have a loss because that'll make all the heroes suffer at Team RWBY's expense while cheating Team RWBY out of the value of learning lessons from failure — which is one of the most important learning curves to have in life.

Where would she park her giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers?

I think the best way for making Atlas explorable is for the heroes to hide out with Klein (the Seven Dwarfs did do this for Snow White, after all). However, they learn from the events of Volume 7 to do what Ironwood (correctly) told them Watts would be doing, which is to keep mobile so that it's harder to find them. That way, we get to see a lot of Atlas and we don't get a repeat of V5's situation of staying in a single location.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 4th 2020 at 4:06:22 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I realized some Fridge Brilliance regarding The state of Atlas

Unlike real life dictatorships, where the war criminals and followers of the regime were tried executed or punished or atleast removed once there side lost, with the great war however nothing like this is indicated to have happened, instead the government dissolved and...that was it.

Especially sense unlike the other kingdoms Altas never abolished its military. So a lot of the guys fighting for Mantles side still had Authority

It makes perfect sense that Mantles more-or-less Fascism would leak into Atlas. Imagine if at the end of WW 2, Hitler just gave up power and Germany just got reorganized.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 4th 2020 at 11:48:54 PM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

We still don't know why Mantle got the strange idea to address the Grimm problem by suppressing emotion and artistic expression. It's implied to have come out of the blue and caught people by surprise. Mantle couldn't even fully impose that philosophy on Mistral, its own ally, even as part of a trade deal (which makes sense given how important artistic merit is to Mistral's outlook and economy).

The obvious guess is that Salem was manipulating Mantle at the time, and that the strange idea came from her manipulations. Likewise, Mistral's suddenly desire to expand into Vale's territory, which is cited as being the actual trigger for the war.

It's very interesting that Ozpin cites the suppression of artistic expression as the major cause of the Great War when the WoR actually focusses on the territorial skirmishes between Vale and Mistral as being the trigger. That alone tells us that Ozpin knows something about the origin of the Great War that the Remnant history books don't know (because it pins the blame on Mantle rather than Mistral, whereas Remnant history is pinning the blame on Mistral rather than Mantle). It's certainly a very big flag (not that we really need it) that Salem's behind the decision in Mantle, and that this was a much bigger factor in the war's origin than history has recorded.

As to what happened to each of the leaders, we don't really know. We know the most about the King of Vale (because it's stated he stood down), but we don't really know his fate either. I'd assume that most, if not all, of the leaders in the war might have descendents who are still alive today.

I have deliberately not focussed on the century leading up to the Great War, where Qrow mentions there was so much tension that it may as well be lumped in with the Great War itself. It's fairly obvious, I think, that all this geo-political tension is going to have been at least partially whipped up by Salem's forces. And one of the issues going on at this time was Mantle's push into Vacuo to obtain Vacuo's rich Dust deposits. However, it's indicated that both Mistral and Vale were doing the same thing to Vacuo — which probably predates the King of Vale becoming the King of Vale. That also explains one of the reasons why Vacuo started the Great War as a neutral observer. On top of the fact it's strongly implied that Salem was trying to manipulate Vacuo into staying out of the war (so that Vale would be outnumbered by Mistral and Mantle), Vacuo would have no reason to rush to side with Vale, if Vale also had a history of exploiting Vacuo's Dust resources. The implication is that it was Salem's own error in judgement that brought Vacuo into the war on Vale's side (the messaging switching from 'stay out of the war' to 'enter the war on Mantle and Mistral's side', which made it clear to Vacuo that Mantle and Mistral would turn on Vacuo once Vale was destroyed... so they had to make sure Vale wasn't destroyed, which shifted the site of the main conflict to Vacuo's territory).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 5th 2020 at 12:08:33 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

That's almost undeniable, I keep wondering about the Degree of Salems control over Mantle, was it just one or 2 things she manipulated to make Mantle become what it did and then let events play out, or was Salem a full on Shadow Dictator?

Things are really about to get Fun around here

It depends on how the kingdoms were structured. It's indicated that all four kingdoms were led by monarchs. If that's definitely the case then Salem would only need the Evil Chancellor and/or Puppet King tropes to gain enough control of the kingdom to trigger the events she wanted. But I'm thinking we're looking more at Evil Chancellor than Shadow Dictator for how kingdoms seemed to work back then — it would be her subordinates of the day who would be involved, rather than her directly. Plus, the WoR indicates that all the leaders were on the battlefield the day the King of Vale did his thing to end the war, so it doesn't sound like Shadow Dictator would be in play.

That said, look at the impact she had on a kingdom under its current system just by virtue of controlling the Academy Headmaster of Mistral's kingdom and terrorising the Headmaster/General of Atlas's kingdom. So, she definitely doesn't need to control an entire government to get what she wants as long as she's successfully manipulating the most 'useful' person in that kingdom's governing structure.

I wonder if she used any crazy Grimm in the Great War on the scale of the giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers — perhaps Wyverns were the giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers of their day, given how rare they are, the fact people don't really seem to believe (or even know) they exist, and that strange ability they have to 'create' new Grimm wherever they drop their ooze.

Edited to add: You wouldn't believe how frequently I type WoD instead of WoR whenever I reference the mini-series.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 5th 2020 at 12:22:49 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Ideas for how Salem was able to control Mantle, 2 of which involve The king answering to her

A.Salem having an associate who was an Evil Chancellor to the thing, something of a successor to Watts, but him being something of a Littlefinger Esqe charachter, a charachter who had numerous connections throughout the kingdoms despite having a supposedly humble role, and he'd serve as The Corrupter to the King of Mantle, using whatever the "Mysterious event" entailed to drive him Desperate to solve the Grimm issue in some way.

B.:The king of Mantle was a charachter a bit like Adam, an ambitious high ranking member of a group who became an ally to Salem, and the "Mysterious Incident" was truthfully Salem fulfilling her end of some kind of Bargain to get rid of his rivals for the Throne, so when he took power he acted out her will. This is the least likely IMO

C.:An idea I came up with this very night, the King of Mantle was someone like Lionheart motivated by fear of Salem(And potentially the king of Mistral as well, and that's the real reason they went with Mantles decree as opposed to just liking Mantle that much) and the 'Mysterious Event' was Salems way of solidifying that Fear. You can even mix bits of this with Idea A. With this in mind, them surrendering to the king wouldn't just be a surrender but a full Heel–Face Turn, as seeing the kings great power had given them hope that he could defeat Salem, and that could also be the real reason they offer him the world, beliving he could lead the charge against Salem, when instead he had them all go to Vytal where they could discuss the true path to defeating Salem, spreading unity and positivity.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 5th 2020 at 2:08:09 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

@Wyld:

• In regards to Reality Is Unrealistic. Yeah, I get this is a realistic progression, but as I've pointed out on my own page in regards to tropes I dislike, just because something is realistic doesn't make it good writing. Good writing has proper buildup and payoff, and so far, their relationship... hasn't had either.
  • In the buildup department, their one real moment before the fight with Adam was Yang telling Blake about her going after Raven, which basically amounted to reading the Riot Act to her. Yeah, its a good moment showing Yang confiding in Blake while getting her to calm down, but its a single moment. Not helped that while Yang asks Blake to "save [her] a dance", they dance once offscreen and Blake's time at the dance is more focused on Sun. I go more into detail on the "buildup" here.
  • In the payoff department however, well... awkward not-flirting is where we're at. I'm not saying we need them to be dating, but at this point it feels like they're deliberately dragging out the Will They or Won't They?, not helped by the commentary on it from Marrow, Weiss, Ren, and Nora. It would probably help quell the issues if you had at least one of them think they have actual feelings for the other. You don't have to make them get together after that, but you can still have one of them either self-reflect or confide in someone else about it. Hell, Arryn has confirmed Blake is Bisexual, so why not have her be the one to realize she has feelings. All a lot of us are asking for is that if they're going to make it this apparent, for the sake of avoiding Queer Baiting, give some indication its actually a possibility and not them just Queer Baiting.
• In regards to Marrow not freezing them. Remember, his Aesop is based on the idea of desiring two things but ending up with neither. He wants to be an Ace-Op but he also wants to still be friends with them, and this is reflected in what happened: he couldn't detain Weiss like he was ordered, and his bond with them has been pretty damaged by this whole deal. If he just froze them, then it would defeat the purpose of the Aesop, since he did have one in that scenario. Marrow's is honestly the only part of that fight I felt was handled well, since while he could have froze them, not doing so fits his character and inspiration more so.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jul 5th 2020 at 4:01:44 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

This is the thing: they are handing the issue to build off later, I feel is just contrast with the expectation of "just let know already!" so for audience have to know, as Wyld said, is weird how the video talk about the entitlement of audience demanding some thing to be truth while saying "just confirm so we dont speculate".

Hell this is not different from anag and katara, who took the entire damn series until the last scene to become a thing.

And with marrow....maybe but it would better if show more conflicted or be order to use is stan....semblence and not to.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Using Aang and Katara as an example falls a bit flat when the Will They or Won't They? for them was strong enough that it legitimately looked like Zutara was a possibility because of it. If you keep "rattling the cage", you're gonna reach the point where it will seem like you're either doing nothing but that, or you make people think other pairings are just as likely if not more likely to happen than the one you intend to happen.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

That have to be less with that and more with katara and zuko having moment alone and feeling more aroun their own age(anag always feel a little bit inmature), that wating long enough.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

....

I had a realization.

As I said before Salems ultimate weapon isn't how strong she is, it's how strong she can make others think she is so she can play on there fear. Hell her legions of monsters can only actually attack people if the people already have negativity(I'm kicking myself for only just now getting that Symbolism) and....I only just realized...

Its really Simmular to the Wizard of oz, "man behind the curtain" affect, and it fits the theme of inversion with the Oz Charachters for the wizards nemesis to be the one using it not the Wizard themself.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 5th 2020 at 12:06:45 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

Ozpin did use it in a way: he is digusing how truly strong the enemy is, also I will said is not that salem is not as strong as people is(because she is) but that mankind is not strong enough to beat her.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Good point. Salem is certainly a dangerous enemy, simply because she has true magic and eons of experience on her side. But she has relied heavily on servants to do most of the work, up until now. And most of her efforts that we have seen involve a combination of trickery and using others to accomplish things.

She's a threat that CAN be defeated, and has been for most of history. Ozpin is despairing only because he sought a permanent solution and was told killing her wasn't possible. No one has started to think along other lines yet, which is what needs to be done now that Jinn has revealed some of the details of the past.

Salem is a threat, yes. But she outright admits in her initial narration cameos that humanity is a threat to her, so she must keep them divided. And I have the sense that she is afraid of something at this point, because we see several cracks in her mask.

• Her literally-explosive reaction to learning about Oscar.
• The extermination of the Silver-eyed Warriors.
• Her focus on capturing, rather than killing, Ruby.
• Focusing everything on Atlas and going personally.

These all indicate there's something at play, that her gloating about "time" being on her side.....may not be entirely true. While it's true in terms of her immortality allowing her to slink off, recover, and try again....it doesn't feel as true in terms of how we see her reacting so strongly and taking so much direct action recently. Is it just that Oz returned sooner than expected? And as simple as just not wanting him to get the brotherhood back on track? Could there be more that has Salem feeling the need to take personal action?

"it just that Oz returned sooner than expected? And as simple as just not wanting him to get the brotherhood back on track? Could there be more that has Salem feeling the need to take personal action?"

Watts says how Ozpin is the only one who had a shot at reaching out to Ironwood, and were told that if James came to his senses and got help from Vacuo then all would be lost.

If we're getting speculative, I have the theory that her goal is to start another Great war while learning from the mistakes of the last, and the Reason she went after Vale and Ozpin first are because they, specifically the latter, are what ruined things for her last time.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

It was awfully convenient that Ozpin sealed himself away in Oscar's mind and refused to come out until Ironwood snapped.

I don't think it's said the Grimm can only attack if people have negativity.

Even if that were the case they'd still have a wide attack radius. Salem could leave the Grimm on Overwatch and probably take over most of our world in a matter of weeks.

• Grimm are still a huge problem
• Entire towns disappear overnight and anything between kingdom borders are difficult to safe guard
• There are only a few known major civilizations most of which are under constant threat of Grimm attack

She can't get the relics, but Salem still owned most of the board for most of history. By the time Ozma reincarnated Grimm were attacking humanity 2.0. There were phases of Ozma's reincarnation cycle where he apparently lost hope, too.

Edited by FOFD on Jul 7th 2020 at 5:48:42 AM

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

I never claimed that realism automatically equals good writing.

What I was doing was responding to things that were said on the video, not anything you've said. For instance, at certain points of the video, the reviewer acts like real life relationships never unfold this way; since real life relationships can unfold this way, the reviewer was making some of the mistake they're critiquing in the show.

As to the show itself, where V7 is concerned, I do happen to think that the Bumblebee ship is both realistic and has been well-written and well-animated across the volume in general.

It's a different discussion for previous volumes, but my post was limited to Volume 7, since what I was responding to was also about Volume 7. For instance, your first sub-bullet point is about issues you had with Volume 6, which is fine, but I wasn't discussing Volume 6 in the first place.

Regarding your second bullet point, this is where my comment about people's experiences with works rarely covering this stage of a relationship is relevant. What's happening in Volume 7 is not the Will They or Won't They? trope. That's what everyone expects because that's how works always do it. It's easier to do it that way, there's a dialogue and scene framing process that makes it very easy to identify.

The closest trope on TV Tropes that I can think of for V7 is Twice Shy — but it's not quite Twice Shy. Now, Will They or Won't They? can often be because of Twice Shy, but Twice Shy does not automatically cause or lead to Will They or Won't They?.

The reason I don't think Twice Shy is suitable is because that 'shy and awkward' Can't Spit It Out due to not knowing how the other feels aspect of it isn't what's going on between them. The way they come across to me in V7 is that they are aware of their feelings, the other's feelings, but they're not ready yet. They've just murdered the psycho ex-boyfriend in self-defence and frankly should take the time to process that so that they can form a healthy relationship with each other.

I really don't get any Will They or Won't They? from them in Volume 7 at all because, to me, it feels more like 'It's guaranteed they will, they just need to heal and process first'. I'm expecting Blake to decide she's ready to move on from Adam in a healthy way — Yang's in a 'I was waiting for you to be ready' position and Blake's to be an 'I know, I'm ready, thank you for waiting for me' position.

And, no, I'm not ignoring the scene of awkwardness over Blake's haircut. I don't believe that scene is because of the Will They or Won't They? trope. I'd personally expect Blake to have that reaction even if there was no ship in sight because that's a common reaction for many women who have had a drastic hair cut after years of wearing long hair. I'd also expect a similar reaction from Yang even if there was no shipping because getting caught staring is commonly embarrassing. The major part of the shipping in the scene is coming from 'why' (why Yang is staring and why Blake wants Yang's approval), but I'd expect similar reactions even if there was no ship (making the 'why' different). However, even though it's shipping-related, that doesn't make it Will They or Won't They?.

Now, as I've said, I think the V7 shipping is well-written across the volume in general. You might or might not recall from my response to the episode when it first aired that I commented on how much I dislike that kind of scene, both in terms of what happens and the stilted, popping movements of Yang to increase the comedy of the moment. That has not changed. I hate those kinds of scenes. Always have. Always will. And it's independent of shipping. It's a type of slapstick humour and, as a rule, I'm not a slapstick fan.

Which brings me to an important point about me. Just because I think something is well-written, it doesn't mean I have no issues or that I think it's perfect. Far from it. For instance, while I think the 'confide in someone else' suggestion is overused (having said that, I quite liked the Yang/Weiss scene in Volume 5), I think we could do with more of the self-reflection option you suggested, as long as it's decently written, of course.

I know what was going on in the scene. I have several issues with the Marrow/Weiss scene, only one of which is connected to how his Aesop played out.

That's a nice way of looking at it.

I've mentioned in the past (back when we were speculating about why Salem seems to sit in her tower while everyone else does the work) and I commented that one of the advantages for someone who's pulling the 'divide and conquer' strategy is mystique. Build it up into an idea that becomes a nightmare lurking in the backs of everyone's minds. Ozpin even alluded to it when he told Ironwood that the basic problem with his fleet sitting in Vale was that it was causing a question to settle into the backs of everyone's minds ('if this is the size of our fleet, what is it we're expecting to fight?').

In a way, Ozpin is saying that Ironwood is doing Salem's work for her by making people worry about the presence and size of his fleet. But, this also exposes Ozpin's own fear — because he's clearly been desperately keeping these secrets to try and prevent people from this fear, from being built up in their nightmares the way Salem benefits from (and in so doing actually makes it easier for Salem to become that invincible, hope-crushing terror in the dark when people do eventually find out because his own avoidance behaviour reinforces it in an 'If Ozpin's our protector, and he feels this way, then she must be even worse than we think' sort of way).

We also see it in Ironwood's belief that she's something beyond human, something that doesn't have human emotions like fear to tie them back, making them fallible. Ozpin's monologue at the end of V7 may sum up everyone's fear, but it also ties into the volume discussing Salem's alleged absence of fear and how this somehow adds to her mystique and invincibility.

We also saw it from Emerald's illusion, which left the heroes shaking (I was actually quite impressed with the shaking animation on Ruby as the illusion dissipated). Which, as I mentioned at the time, actually tells us a lot about how Emerald sees Salem because she scared the heroes with what essentially scares herself about Salem.

Then, of course, we see where Emerald's illusion originates from when Salem manifests in Ironwood's office, which does freak out the heroes. More importantly, Salem (in both the illusion and the manifestation) is quite noticeably a gigantic figure compared to the humans. This makes her larger than life. Not only do they have this growing darkness of fear just from the idea of her, the image of her is larger than life and seemingly implaccable, as if it has the answer to everything and an eternal patience to just wait for everything to fall her lap).

Without something like that huge Grimm army and giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers, Salem in the flesh runs the risk of demystifying herself. The more she exposes herself directly to her enemies, the greater the chance they have of finding reasons to overcome the fear of the unknown or poorly understood... by developing knowledge and understanding about who she really is, what makes her tick, whether she really does have fear or has been stripped of her humanity, she becomes human and that is something people have a much better chance of dealing with, at least conceptually.

Yes, that did feel like a flag to me as well, given that Salem chose to rush the Atlas timeline. There is definitely something about Oz that's bothering her. We saw it when she was first introduced, how bothered she seemed by the idea that Cinder killed Oz and the hint that Cinder could only achieve that if Oz allowed it to happen for some hidden reason. It's only grown since then and includes things like it having been said several times now that there's something strange going on with the reincarnation from Ozpin to Oscar that unsettled all the villains.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Honestly, they really need a metric fuckton of therapy before entering any kind of relationship considering how fucked up their history together has been, along with the more negative behaviors the two exhibit as a result of each other. Largely from Yang's part.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

"I don't think it's said the Grimm can only attack if people have negativity.

Even if that were the case they'd still have a wide attack radius. Salem could leave the Grimm on Overwatch and probably take over most of our world in a matter of weeks."

That's not what I mean, I mean negative as in feeling negative emotions. We see in volume 7 once everyone was able to calm down and stand together that the entire Grimm Army just stopped.

"Grimm are still a huge problem Entire towns disappear overnight and anything between kingdom borders are difficult to safe guard There are only a few known major civilizations most of which are under constant threat of Grimm attack She can't get the relics, but Salem still owned most of the board for most of history. By the time Ozma reincarnated Grimm were attacking humanity 2.0. There were phases of Ozma's reincarnation cycle where he apparently lost hope, too"

At the start of the show the world is in a state of piece, Ozpin has people in Leadership positions on parts of each nations Governant. And the world is largely United. And even Salems minions are mostly made up of Societal Outcasts.

Salem has virtually everything working against her, and Oz has been able to Foil her schemes for a long time.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

Man, you really summarized a lot of what I've been thinking about regarding Salem. One of the core tools she has always relied upon is twisting the narrative to present herself as more than she actually is. To play a specific role, and mystify people into either worshiping or fearing her.

She used her Curse to gather an army, by claiming she stole Immortality and would grant it to everyone else. She put on dramatic displays of her inability to die, to convince the kings and queen to follow her.

The foundation of her kingdom with Oz was them taking on a God Guise, using their magic and their immortality. Presenting themselves to the new humanity as these larger-than-life figures, god-like and all-powerful.

Salem draws her current circle in by convincing them their goals can only be achieved through her. And of course we have Tyrian, who literally believes she's a Goddess.

Ironwood falls completely for this trick, believing her to be beyond humanity and beyond fear or emotion. When in reality, we see very clearly that emotion is what drives Salem. She is a woman unable to let go of the past, unable to move past that one terrible moment when her marriage fell apart. She is very, very good at concealing her true emotions and thoughts from others most of the time. But she is very much being driven by her fear of Ozpin.

I would also venture that Ruby's comment actually did bother Salem, enough that she felt the need to pull the "Ur Mom" card. Ruby telling her that "Jinn showed us everything" got her attention, because myth and misinformation are Salem's tools. Prior to all this, Oz was literally the only person in existence that knew she wasn't some immortal, all-powerful Goddess.

Edited by harostar on Jul 7th 2020 at 9:56:18 AM

The "Time of Peace" feels more like propaganda when you remember that:

• Ren's home village of Kuroyuri fell to the Nuckleavee, which had continued to rampage across Anima for the better part of a decade, including destroying Shion Village and Oniyuri.
• The White Fang were a serious threat and causing numerous terrorists attacks to the point of executing board members of the SDC.
• The SDC being a corrupt business empire well known for its inhuman labor practices yet never facing criminal charges.
• The Branwen Bandit Tribe was a consistent problem, to the point they sent in two of their own to Beacon Academy to improve their strength with their current leader being one of said two.
• Mt. Glenn was a complete and utter failure that led to a flat out massacre
• Tyrian Callows had been a wanted Serial Killer responsible for a rampage across Anima before Salem even recruited him, and returned to his rampage after Salem freed him personally.
• Roman Torchwick had been a wanted felon for some time before Cinder even recruited him.
• The Spiders run the criminal underground in all of Mistral.
• The Xiong Family being heavily active in Vale with possible connections to the Spiders since Junior's two bodyguards are the daughters of the leader of the Spiders.

The "Time of Peace" just seems like another facet of Ozpin's "We can't cause a panic" mentality, since in spite of this proclaimed peaceful era, shit was still going wrong. Settlements are constantly dying, the Grimm are constantly roaming, and criminals keep running around unabated due to the police largely being incompetent. Even Dr. Oobleck noted that the Goliath surrounding Vale may seem docile, its only because they're waiting for the perfect moment to attack. Plus, let us not forget that the mission that kept CFVY occupied for so long before they finally returned and detailed in RWBY: After the Fall was a failed mission, one where the Village they were tasked to save was annihilated, no survivors were found, and CFVY themselves almost died.

Ozpin however is an ardent defender of the idea of quelling panic before it can spread fast. It's why he was so against Ironwood's methods, since while he was creating a show of force, it was creating fear. So he can't tell everyone "Shit's fucked, we're hanging by a thread", that would just incite panic. Instead, he tells everyone that its a Time of Peace. It's why Ruby expressed confusion over Penny being made to "save the world" despite the current situation and Penny not knowing fully about the Secret War. The only thing fully preventing Ozpin from quelling fear is ultimately the media. Numerous times we're shown just how bad things are getting, but only because of first hand accounts, objective descriptions from historians like Oobleck, or from the media itself like Lisa Lavender, who doesn't hide the fact. Even as far back as Volume 1 she and her news station were informing us that the "Time of Peace" is nothing but propaganda. Only to be cut off by Glynda before she can continue in detail.

The "Time of Peace" was always a farce. The Secret War was always going on in the shadows, and its effects weren't always hidden from the populace. It's been a constant power struggle between Salem and Ozma, and the Fall of Beacon was simply a victory she had been building up to from the moment she sent Cinder after Amber. Trying to make it seem like nothing was wrong ultimately damned Ozpin in the long run, since it made him look incompetent to the Vale Council after the Breach, and made him and Ironwood look duplicitous during the Vytal Festival, something Cinder capitalized on during her speech by subjecting them to Hero with Bad Publicity. So, this "Time of Peace" can't be used as evidence to suggest Salem is on the back burner. It's always been a stalemate up to the point of the "Fall of Beacon". Since then, Salem's been on the offensive. Beacon has fallen, Haven is shut down, Vale is overrun, Mistral is left defenseless, Atlas has closed in on itself, Vacuo is Vacuo, and Salem is poised to invade Atlas.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jul 8th 2020 at 2:40:01 PM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

I'm not saying the world was in a state of Absolute perfection where nothing bad ever happened. I'm saying humanity was not fighting each other or at each others throats. Her previous schemes had not only been Foiled but there was a huge number of things such as the CCT Towers made it Nigh Impsosible for her to continue doing so.

The point of the Fall of Beacon was to reverse all of that, it wasn't a sign she was never beaten, it was because she'd beaten once and needed something incredibly huge just so she could try again. It's because Salem needed a huge, Gigantic catastrophic event so she could pull off a way to Undo the number of things working against her thanks to all of Oz works, by trying to get people to turn on eahcohter and on top of taking down the tower to cut off communications between the kingdoms. And even then it required a whole Crapton of things to happen and be set up.

Cinder even had to make up issues, she didn't expose some truth Ozpin was desperately hiding, she manipulated things to present false narratives about how Hunstman and Huntresses were barbaric and not true heroes and how the kingdoms were on the Brink of war.

And the only reason Salem was able to do any of these things or take out Mistrals Hunstman? It's because Leonardo Lionheart was consumed by the belief Salem was some Unstoppable force and did what she wanted out of fear, letting Cinder and Gang infiltrate Beacon and sell out Mistrals Hunstman.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 7th 2020 at 5:25:29 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

That's not the only reason. All Leo did was aid them in the plan for Mistral and forge ids for Cinder, Emerald, and Mercury. He didn't tell them where Amber was, he didn't get them an in with the White Fang, he didn't find them Roman, he didn't do much in the long run in regards to Beacon. Cinder was exploiting pre-existing tensions to her advantage. The White Fang were the product of generations of poor treatment of the Faunus, and they recruited Adam to make use of that hatred that had been festering. Roman had been active for quite awhile, and his knowledge of Vale's criminal underground was very useful in stealing a lot of Vale's dust and getting their hands on stolen Atlesian mechs, and he was only recruited on the advice of Mercury, who they hadn't even intended to recruit, they were after his Semblance stealing dad Marcus.

And it wasn't nigh impossible for her to do things, otherwise Tock wouldn't have been able to be her SEW hunter, and the Grimm can still rampage even with the CCT up.

The tensions between Kingdoms weren't made up either. Cordovin may have been a nationalistic blowhard, but her opinions weren't unique to her. All of the Argus staff shared similar beliefs to her, and even the citizens of Mantle have demonstrated resentment of the other kingdoms. Rumple and the students of Shade have also made clear Vacuo doesn't have good feelings for Vale either even with the Fall of Beacon having happened. All it takes is a single spark to ignite the powder keg that is war, and the tensions that existed were only made more palpable with the Fall of Beacon, making the powder keg even bigger, and the spark needed all the more ready to light it up.

The only things Cinder made up was the idea Ironwood and Ozpin were in a power struggle with one another and that Mistral was gunning for war. Everything else though is technically true, just without proper frame of reference. A frame the public doesn't have because the entire purpose of the Secret War is to be secret. Salem however doesn't care for it being a Secret War, Ozpin does. If she cared, she wouldn't be going for such grandiose attacks like the Fall of Beacon or Monstro.

Side note, but the Huntsmen system is barbaric and not truly heroic. They're glorified mercenaries and not all them stick to the straight and narrow, Yang was specifically selected for the Frame-Up because of how temperamental and violent she is when fighting which they demonstrated through her fight with Neon and had shown in her fighting plenty of times before like with Junior's club, and the Vytal Festival's main attraction is practically glorified gladiator matches with teenagers beating the crap out of each other with lethal weapons. If you're gonna have a mercenary system in place, don't make it the primary means of defense in the setting, and don't make any other forms of law enforcement of government look incompetent in the process.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Them being allowed into Beacon was a gigantic part of the Plan. If they hadnt then Cinder wouldn't be able to break into the CCT nor would they be able to learn stuff about each of the students and mess with the Vytal festival to cause, well all of that.

And her faking the power struggle between Ozpin and Ironwood was no Minor thing, there being some people who didn't like the other kingdoms are not the same thing at all as the people actually in charge of those kingdoms at each others throats and waiting to Attack each other.

The SEW were all largely super secret, so no one's really stopping them being hunted.

And the fact her plan needed the other stuff wasn't a sign of her not being at a disadvantage, it is further proof of it. Salem needed a ton of stuff to go her way, and a lot of them relied on each other. The white Fang told Cinder to screw off til she came back as a part maiden, and with Amber? Cinder was only able to take part of the power after a long battle, after Amber didn't fall for Emerlalds trick before being stopped by Qrow and only snagged the rest thanks to the Fall of Beacon.

And by the Contary Salem seems to want to keep it a Secret War just as badly as Ozpin does, arguably moreso. As her entire strategy for dividing people involves turning them against each other as well as manipulating the perception of the public. And even when she goes to Atlas personally in a last resort and even then Sent Tyrian and Watts to cause chaos and manipulate public perception first.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 7th 2020 at 6:41:03 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

In terms of the "Era of Peace", I think it's more of an example of how horrible things have been for most of history. The decades after the Great War have so many issues already discussed and listed at length by Rebel. But we're told repeatedly that this is considered to be the most peaceful era in history.

Which......honestly, just tells us how incredibly low the bar is for that to be considered "the best things have ever been". People are going "Yay we've not actively at war with each other, slavery is TECHNICALLY illegal, Faunus technically have equal rights, and there's global communication!" Like their bar for things being GOOD is so low that it might as well be driven into the ground.

Edited by harostar on Jul 7th 2020 at 12:47:41 PM