RWBY General Discussion

While trying to rile other internet users up is bringing things too far, that tumblr user has a point. There is a bias against how LGBT ships are troped. Not just in RWBY but with the site in general.

LGBT ships are first only troped as Ho Yay or Les Yay because they are only in the subjective eyes of some users and thus YMMV. And as seen with Yang and Blake's relationship, it took a lot for it to be accepted as actual Ship Tease and not just something that is YMMV. And that is still debated. Straight ships on the other hand are immediately troped under Ship Tease wich is more objective and it takes much less evidence for that. Like Ozpin and Glynda had been troped as Ship Tease for five years until it got removed. Ren and Nora are troped as being attracted to each other, even though they too so far didn't get past the handholding stage. In fact Ren and Nora got more less through the same story beats as Yang and Blake when it comes to, yet no one has ever questioned it. Boob is even cited as a proof of Nora's love, while every song about Blake and Yang's relationship is seen as something the fans can interpret into.

If you were remove Nora's attraction to Ren or Blake's to Sun under the pretext that it is YMMV and ambiguous, the end result would probably be that the removal would be rejected. Even though there aren't any tropes that apply to either relationship that doesn't apply to Yang's and Blake's. Yet the former two have been troped as unambiguous since volume 1. I think that's partly because people are coded to see the interactions between people of the opposite sex within a possible romantic context.

Speaking of how canon songs are, it only ever comes in the context of BMBLB or other songs about their relationship and is pretty much forgotten for most other songs. And lastly, when it comes to the weight of the word of the V As, in previous cases, it has been taken as confirmations. Like what Pyrrha's and Torchwick's voice actors said about them and their demises. But in the case of Yang and Blake's relationship it suddenly meant to be seen as, they can't really know. And word of god is basically Miles admitting that it will become a thing. Yet that has also been mostly ignored so far.

I'm overgeneralizing a bit of course, but there is definitely some bias in so far that LGBT ships have a much marder time to be troped as an actual thing and are tested more thorough compared to their straight counterparts.

I think it's one of those cases when I should be glad to be Locked Out of the Loop.

There's no site-wide bias against gay anything. If the character is proven gay, then they're troped appropriately. Honestly, I don't get why the Ambiguous tropes aren't flagged as YMMV. Much of this drama comes from shippers having to funnel their emotions through confusingly named tropes under the impression that they're fact.

The problem lies more therein that shippy interactions between characters of the same sex are first troped as the YMMY Ho Yay or Les Yay and usually have to show a lot of evidence until they are troped as Ship Tease. Meanwhile shippy interactions between characters of the opposite sex are troped as Ship Tease first and usually have to prove much less. In other words queer ships are first seen as YMMV while straight ships are not. And that is some biased troping, especially since the threshold for queer ships to be accepted as actual Ship Tease seems to be higher. The troping history of Blake and Yang's relationship compared to other ships between members of the opposite sex in the show is a good example of that imo.

Edited by bandersnitch on Sep 20th 2019 at 3:35:52 AM

This is.... above my pay grade.

Vol 7 trailer at NY Comic-Con. Somebody go and spoil it here since I can't go. :/

That tends to have to do less with Ship Tease and more with Crack Ship. Anyone can enter anything under the Ho Yay or Les Yay tropes if it even comes across as vaguely romantic, regardless of canon intention or not. That's what a Crack Ship is all about, its a ship that has no real basis whatsoever in canon but is still shipped anyway. Ship Tease however requires the show actually tease the ship. Not a matter of interpretation, it has to be actually teased. And even then, you can only really do that if the ship is canonized and retroactively mark their moments are Ship Tease. Cause again, people can interpret anything as Ship Tease even if it isn't intended to be. Ship Tease honestly should be a YMMV trope in itself since unless the creator confirms the intent behind it, its just interpretations.

• Lets use this situation as a hypothetical. Lets say Blake doesn't get together with Yang and instead gets together with Sun. People would in turn claim Blake and Yang had tons of Ship Tease, only for Merry to claim they intended it to come across as Heterosexual Life-Partners, and that there was no actual Ship Tease. People would then claim Barbara and Arryn supported the ship, and they would in turn claim they were just using Word of Saint Paul or Word of Dante.
  • In this hypothetical, the Ship Tease wasn't real, it was just based on interpretation. You could argue this was a Relationship Writing Fumble, but that would only be applicable if they were depicted as being in love when they weren't, rather than be based solely on interpretation. I'm not trying to sound heteronormative either. The situation could work as well should Blake get together with Ilia or Weiss instead of Yang. The entire purpose of this idea is that people perceive something to be Ship Tease when it isn't confirmed yet.

Really, Ho Yay and Les Yay are just same gender counterparts to Crack Ship, while Ship Tease is unisex. As for the whole Blake and Yang thing, most of the moments I've seen people consider "Ship Tease" easily come across as a very close friendship or familial to me.

As for Songs, no, the songs are not considered Canon aside from BMBLB. The Williams have made it apparent that the songs are simply interpretations and that they do not constitute canon.

And no, unless the voice actors specifically cite that it is canon and receive confirmation from the actual writing staff, their word doesn't count as Word of God, its Word of Saint Paul or Word of Dante.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Sep 20th 2019 at 6:50:18 AM

I agree that Ship Tease should be YMMV…

I've seen a similar issue recently on the Carole & Tuesday page where someone added the Bait-and-Switch Lesbians trope as if it was impossible to interpret the two protagonists' interactions as anything but romantic… but it's clear the person simply expressed their own disappointment that their ship didn't happen.

You are conflicting a ship ending as canon with a ship being teased. It also doesn't answer, why are queer ships more likely to be seen as Crack Ships? Why was for example Black/Sun, Ren/Nora or Glynda/Ironwood immediately seen as a Ship Tease, while Blake/Yang were not? What elements constituted as being in the show and teased by the creators after a short time, while for Yang and Blake it took six years.

Not to mention your comparison is wrong. Crack Ships are for ships with zero basis. Like Zwei x God of Light. Ho Yay/Les means that something happened in the show that is seen as shippy and homoerotic. Yet, as I mentioned the same interaction between characters of the opposite sex is far more likely to be seen as Ship Tease. Prime example, during the dance arc, we had multiple characters dancing in pairs. Now which of the pairs was troped as Ho Yay and only troped under Ship Tease after four years, while all the other pairs were immediately troped under Ship Tease?

By your logic shouldn't Sun and Blake then not be removed as Ship Tease since all the points you raised apply to them? And as for the songs, Boob is for example considered proof that Nora is love with Ren and it is troped as such. Regarding word of god, we have tweets from Jen Brown for example cited as Word of God that Phyrrha the writer himself stating that it will eventually happen.

There is bias against homoerotic interactions, since they are more likely to be troped as something that only the viewers see as opposed to something that is actually in the show, while heteroerotic interactions are way more likely to be seen as actually being there.

Edited by bandersnitch on Sep 20th 2019 at 4:19:32 AM

... Okay did you ignore what I said? Ho Yay and Les Yay I equated to Crack Ship because people will put anything under it even if it in no way indicates Ship Tease.

• "Ooh, Coco is protective of Velvet? It's Les Yay!" Uh, no, all of Team CFVY is protective of her, not just Coco.
• "Oh, Penny is super excited to see Ruby? It's Les Yay!" Uh, no, Ruby is Penny's first friend and she enjoys talking with her and barely gets to see her.
• "Ooh, Qrow is very supportive of Oz and confides in him? It's Ho Yay!" Uh, no, Ozpin is one of the only people who made Qrow feel like he was worth something and is more Qrow's emotional crutch.

Ho Yay and Les Yay have examples randomly thrown in because people will consider anything applicable. It's the entire basis behind Ozpin x Ironwood, when most of their interactions amounted to arguing. And since it has little basis in canon, Ship Tease or not, its more akin to a Crack Ship.

Just read this one line from Ho Yay: "Nowadays, Yaoi Fans and Yuri Fans willingly interpret any interaction as potentially gay, for characters without canonical orientations and even for those specifically stated by their creators to be straight (in which case the author may be very annoyed by the fans' insistence otherwise)."

Ho Yay and Les Yay are subjective because of these people. Ship Tease meanwhile, is what the show intends to ship. I suggested having it done after a relationship is canonized because it removes the ambiguity by only troping it as such once its made clear that was the intent.

Boop is considered canon because its one of the few songs the creators have acknowledged as canon. The song on its own is not evidence enough. The song requires the creators acknowledge it as canon.

Jen Brown has support from Merry however to corroborate her claims its canon, as well as support from Monty's Wife. Barbara and Yang don't.

You seem to be looking for a bias when there isn't any as far as we can see. If you really have such an issue with it though, take it to the Trope Workshop and make your case there, not here.

The creators have categorically stated that, while they have put some deliberate Bumblebee Ship Tease into the show, most of what the fans think they're seeing is not intended to be Ship Tease at all.

Remember, even when shipping is confirmed in a show, there will still be scenes and moments that are things the fandom wants to see rather than things that genuinely exist.

That applies to Het ships as well as LGBTQ ships.

Ozpin/Glynda got troped as Ship Tease based on shippers taking too seriously something the creators joked about in Volume 1 interviews. That's why it was treated as 'confirmed' from early on — and, yes, that should have been caught and removed much earlier than it was.

Renora also had the benefit of creator confirmation, which included confirmation of attraction on Nora's part before they ever had a relationship upgrade, something Bumblebee doesn't have (beyond a cautious confirmation that there is some intentional Ship Tease, but not as much as fans think).

This is untrue. In my personal experience, most of the song misuse I've encountered isn't even shipping-related. It's regarding things like Villain Song, Leitmotif, Image Song, and so on. Where misuse of shipping tropes has occurred, we've cleaned up Renora, Arcos, White Rose, and Black Sun misuse as well as Bumblebee. However, because the fandom tropes Bumblebee more prolifically than any other pairing, misuse (and therefore cleaning) is also more prolific.

The RWBY fandom has a tendency to try and work every little thing the creators, voice actors and general RWBY staff say into as many tropes as they can — except for song lyrics, where creator comments suddenly get ignored in favour of trying to trope every personal interpretation as canon.

That's a bit disingenuous. Miles and Kerry were quick to confirm Pyrrha and Torchwick's deaths. Their voice actors were therefore merely backing up Word of God confirmation. Meanwhile, the creators have been much more circumspect about confirming anything LGBTQ because they're concerned about the accusation of LGBTQ-baiting.

My response here is the same as for anyone who says they want to trope something based on what the creators say: tell us where they said it. Sources go a long way to helping establish a trope's viability.

But, also? This site tropes what has happened in a show. It does not trope what might happen in the future — not even what is certain to happen in the future.

No, they just have to meet the trope requirements: The YMMV tropes are based on fan perception and Ship Tease is deliberately put in by the creators. While there can be a fine line between the two, the Ho Yay family of tropes have been going through a forum clean-up for misuse, which has helped to better establish the differences between them and Ship Tease.

Meanwhile, it's harder to trope het YMMV because the core tropes that used to be used (such as Shipping Goggles) no longer list examples and have become terms instead of tropes. Because it's harder to find a relevant YMMV het option, entries get dumped into the Ship Tease trope instead — often incorrectly. And that does get cleaned up when spotted. Speaking as one of the more active tropers who tends to clean up RWBY tropes, I don't tend to following the shipping tropes, so I only clean something when it has a reason to appear on my radar. Because it's easier to trope LGBTQ and villain fandom perception, it's also easier to spot the misuse.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing your basic point that het ships and LGBTQ ships can appear to be treated with different standards by fans. However, I think you're targeting the wrong issue. The primary reasons are:

• Bumblebee's by far the most troped pairing and therefore gets the most activity (in terms of troping, misuse, cleaning, and edit warring)
• It's easier to trope YMMV perceptions of LGBTQ shipping moments than het (resulting in Ship Tease being the default (incorrect) dumping ground for het ships and Ho Yay being the default (correct) dumping ground for LGBTQ ships)
• The creators themselves are more willing to confirm (or dismiss) het ships (or at least het attraction) in the show than LGBTQ ones, which therefore take much longer to confirm the creator deliberation needed for objective tropes like Ship Tease.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 20th 2019 at 2:55:08 PM

Personaly I dislike how the Songs are considered non Canon and merely an interpretation...I mean. Isn't the whole point of the Song to Represent the character?

And of course it's made troping more complicated then it should because of that.

Blame the songwriters, they're the ones who said that.

I'd rather lay the blame on Merry for not being upfront about the canonicity of the songs from the offset. Because we didn't get that clarification until nearly five volumes in, it became fanon that the songs were canon.

I think the fault lies with this fandom being so determined to find a trope for every tiny little thing even if they've got to misuse tropes to do it. Creators shouldn't have to clarify that soundtracks aren't equal in canonicity to the show. It should be common sense that the default position on a soundtrack song (that is meta instead of in-universe) is to be wary about troping it as canon — and it usually is for most works. At least, most works that I'm personally familiar with.

I understand issues with interpreting the two songs that have been brought into the show's universe (as sung by Weiss) because those songs really do become canon while also having the standard issue of the lyrics themselves remaining relatively open to interpretation; that means troping them will be a mixture of objective and subjective. However, I have very little sympathy with the fandom regarding the rest. Creators shouldn't have to babysit fandoms.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 21st 2019 at 1:40:15 PM

And when people say that Bumblebee was planned from "TEH BEGINNAH!", they often cite Red Like Roses, Part 1, even though they earlier said songs aren't canon.

So, quick question regarding The More, The Merrier. Does the scene where Raven transforms into her true human form once again count as either a Continuity Nod or a Call-Back?

None. What exactly is it calling back to exactly?

Basically, Yang recognizes the red-eyed Raven as her mother when she and Weiss witness her transformation first-hand in "Known by its Song."

Edited by gjjones on Sep 21st 2019 at 11:53:16 AM

None. It's simply the logical next step for Yang and the experiences she's had. Before she realises the bird is her mother, she recognises it as a bird she's seen before. That's just set up for the scene in Haven to explain how she identify that black bird over there as her mother rather than an ordinary bird.

Very good. Removed that trope from the recap page.

Dumb RWBY to fit this shipping mood.◊

What? Usually a song is played because it focuses and reflects the characterization and events happening on screen. That they don't have anything to do with anything is the weird and unintuitive thing. (also probably a bad choice since the songs paint a more interesting picture than the actual show lol)

Edited by Moth13 on Sep 21st 2019 at 12:56:53 PM

Saying they are non canon come as a Sort of author saving throw, specially after all the shipping non Sense

I don't really Blame the fans, the fact the Song represents the Charachters is a pretty natural assumption as, again thats what there FOR.

If the writers wanted to make songs that were just personal takes on the Charachters it should have been like that Bumblby song rather then the Official soundtrack for the Charachters.

What? I didn't say soundtracks have nothing to do with the show, I said it's common sense to assume they're not of equal canon to the show unless they're taken in-universe.

Well, like almost anything to do with songs, that's YMMV. I'm not as enamoured with the RWBY music as a lot of fans.

There had been warnings about it long before the shipping nonsense hit the high heavens (although obviously not before the shipping was established, given that the shipping was established by the four trailers before the pilot had ever aired). It's just the 'BMBLB' issue finally caused the fandom to notice they were saying it. It did also make the more forceful about saying it, which might be why fans finally noticed.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 21st 2019 at 10:03:19 AM