Marvel Cinematic Universe

I also liked the first act of Incredible Hulk a lot. The stuff in Brazil. Him stopping an entire production line just to get some blood off the conveyor belt. His desperate correspondence with Mr Blue. The fatal mistakes he makes that puts Ross on his ass again. Him fleeing through the city. I dunno, I found that entire section really memorable, and I liked the grimy vibe it was going for.

It's kinda the inverse of Ang Lee's Hulk in that way as well. To me Ang Lee's Hulk doesn't get really good until after Bruce's first transformation. In Incredible Hulk the film's idendity is strongest BEFORE that first transformation.

Edited by GNinja on Dec 2nd 2019 at 1:33:15 PM

Kaze ni Nare!

The issue with using Mutants as a metaphor for real life bigotry, in addition to the other issues brought up already, is that they were never really intended to be a metaphor for real life bigotry. At least not at first.

Sure, writers would eventually try to make them into a metaphor. But because Mutants weren't originally written with that purpose in mind, it's been pretty shaky. It's like trying to file down a square peg to fit into a round hole.

As for the Double Standard between how X-Men are treated and how other supers are treated...well, that's a consequence of X-Men being in its own weird little narrative bubble in the Marvel verse for so long (which was also mentioned before). Thanks, Claremont.

Edited by M84 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:33:05 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

Much like how Daredevil was a jokey superhero who didn't get brooding until Frank Miller took over.

Disney will have to address this thanks to Marvel's film series being a shared universe.

Edited by Mizerous on Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:36:13 AM

Mileena Madness

And while that was a pretty solid story, future writers took the wrong message and decided to make Matt Murdock into one of the most unfortunate and miserable people in the Marvel Verse. It got to the point where more recent writers decided to ease off a bit on poor Matt — a bit.

Edited by M84 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:36:45 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

I think Daredevil wasn't really that well-defined or successful before Miller came in. So the film noir elements Miller introduced so strongly defined Daredevil that now he's basically catholic Batman with less money.

Catholic Batman with less money and a law degree at least.

...What did Bruce major in, come to think of it?

Edited by M84 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:38:41 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

Given what we got from that, I am more than okay with Impoverished Catholic Batman.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:39:08 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

The difference is that Batman stories tend to be somewhat more optimistic than Daredevil stories.

Disgusted, but not surprised

...wow, that actually says quite a lot doesn't it? That Batman stories are more optimistic than Daredevil (at least until Mark Waid came along, though I haven't read his run personally).

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:42:40 AM

For all the dark trappings and brooding and implied psychological issues, Batman is ultimately a figure of romantic heroism and optimism. Granted, that's depending on the writer.

Batman stories get their darkest when they focus more on Batman's Rogues Gallery, especially when they attempt to change for the better and fail. Two-Face focus stories can be particularly dark due to this.

Edited by M84 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:49:34 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

Hell, they've been complaining about the last adaptation of that story we got for years now since the MCU got big.

Depends on who is writing them. Sometimes they're depicted as just another evil organization that wants to take over the world.

Superhero media doesn't have the best depiction of Nazis. More often than not, they'll be depicted as no different from COBRA or VILE. Even the Red Skull is often depicted as more of a misanthrope than a bigot these days. Hell the team of villains he was leading in the first arc of Uncanny Avengers was more diverse than the heroes.

Edited by windleopard on Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:12:49 AM

That's like saying Superman didn't fly at first; the most iconic depiction of them, the depiction of them that has been true for the past forty-four years, has been a metaphor for real life bigotry.

They were invented just so that radiation would stop being the go-to for superpowers, right?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

If mutants were radiation-based would they be hated less?

Mileena Madness

There's a difference between increasing Supe's powers and adding a sociopolitical allegory to something that was not originally intended to be such.

Remember that they used to be called "Children of the Atom". I think the most recent explanation is that while nuclear radiation isn't the cause of Mutants (instead it's because of the Celestials' interference), the detonation of the atomic bombs in WW II did trigger a rise in Mutant birth rates.

Edited by M84 on Dec 3rd 2019 at 12:31:04 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised

Yeah, Stan Lee basically just had mutants born with their powers so he wouldn't have to keep coming up with different ways to explain superpowered heroes.

I think what M84 is getting at is that since mutants were not created to be metaphors for oppressed groups, this has affected the way the metaphor has been applied and not for the better. A particularly bad, modern example is the issue of Mattew Rosenberg's ''Uncanny X-Men'' which saw Rahne killed off.

Fucking Rosenberg. And when people want the X-Men to be treated dark I present a textbook example of how not to go OVER THE EDGE.

Mileena Madness

It doesn't matter why they were created, only that they've been used as a metaphor and allegory for the past forty-four years and that isn't going to change. Bemoaning the fact that when Lee and Kirby created them in the '60s, they weren't metaphors is silly; they are metaphors now and they will continue to be metaphors in the future. The only way to move forward with the X-Men is to make sure that good writers use the metaphor well, like Grant Morrison and Jonathan Hickman, rather than poorly like Matthew Rosenberg or Chuck Austen.

Also, there are plenty of characters that change into their more iconic forms over time. Batman carried a gun and killed bad guys, Green Arrow was a Batman-ripoff instead of a hippie with a van dyke beard, and so on.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:37:48 AM

Again, those are relatively less difficult changes to make than adding an entire social metaphor to a set of characters who weren't built with said metaphor in mind.

Windleopard already pointed out a recent example of the issues with this.

Edited by M84 on Dec 3rd 2019 at 1:45:30 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised

I gotta say, I'm really wondering how they'll play things.

One Strip! One Strip!

Not really. All you need is a good writer, which Chris Claremont was.

Poor writing can turn anything bad, it doesn't matter if it's a metaphor or not.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:51:09 AM

Chris Claremont having Kitty compare the term "mutie" to the "n" word should have been the first clue that the metaphor has some serious issues.

The metaphor would later become even more messed up when Grant Morrison explained that anti-Mutant prejudice was because of sentient bacteria.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Speaking of characters turning into their most iconic versions over time, Captain America's most iconic portrayal is AFTER he emerges from the ice, a man removed from time, a relic of a bygone era trying to adapt to the modern world (which is a story that only gets more impactful the later Steve comes out of the ice).

Except Cap was introduced as a Nazi-puncher in 1941, stayed a Nazi-puncher until 1949, had a revival as a Commie-puncher in 1953, and it was only much later in 1964 did they decide to retcon Commie-punching Cap as a different Captain America, and that the real Captain America has been frozen in ice ever since his days of Nazi-punching. Captain America had been around for twenty-three years before they turned him into his most iconic version.

Same thing with Bucky. He was just Captain America's Robin, his Kid Sidekick who punched Nazis and Commies alongside ol' Cap, until they revealed that Cap was frozen and Bucky had been dead ever since. It wasn't until 2005, SIXTY-FOUR YEARS after his introduction, that the writers brought Bucky back as the Winter Soldier which, despite being relatively recent, is EASILY his most popular form as a character.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:23:48 AM

ICYMI: Marvel Studios' big panel at CCXP is coming December 7.

For the uninitiated, the panel's 45 minutes long and Kevin Feige himself will be there, so we might be hearing more than just Black Widow and Eternals.

And here's a twist: Ryan Reynolds will also have a panel at CCXP on the same day◊ to promote his upcoming movies Free Guy and 6 Underground. Why's this significant? Brie Larson appeared in San Diego Comic Con 2016 to promote Kong: Skull Island. And it was there that she was announced as Captain Marvel.

Seeing a connection here? Might we see the announcement of the next movie of a certain Merc with a Mouth?

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Dec 2nd 2019 at 1:32:25 PM