Rename (29/05/12): Gene Hunt Interrogation Technique

Hey, I also think there's enough of a reason to split the present trope, no need to be riled up. Also, we have "bishonen" in Mesopotamia? If it's a Japan-specific trope, the Japanese examples should be removed from the non-japanese page and vice versa. Bishonen isn't about being younger, other wise it'd also be called Pretty Boy and the other trope would be Bi Seinen or Pretty MAN. No, it's just that the way Japanese pretty boys are viewed is different: over there, that's the look to have for the womanizing heterosexual male, while macho guys are expected to be gay. Over here it's kinda the opposite. So thoe tropes need some cleanup, but let's focus on his one. Accuracy comes first, consistency will follow.

edited 30th Oct '11 10:29:31 AM by PacificState

I think the difference between a Pretty Boy and a Bishounen is that a Pretty Boy is not or doesn't have to be androgynous.

Read the page definition...

Oh, yes, well, that's a much better reason than "younger".

Seriously, my point here was not to focus on Japanese tropes vs. Rwandan tropes vs. whatever, and I don't want to get into the fight over the thin-to-emaciation reasons why we kept Specific Trope X... my point... again... is that the argument that there isn't enough separation between this trope and "just plain torture" rings hollow to me when we have so many other tropes that are basically "Trope, but with a very thin distinction".

Is this a subtrope of the Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique? Sure. Are they both Sub Tropes of Cold-Blooded Torture? Sure. But are distinctive enough to stand on their own?

Yes, using every standard we've ever used for any trope ever, then yes. They are separate.

edited 30th Oct '11 10:35:03 AM by Worldmaker

I gotta agree there. Though, you knoe, grandfathered mistakes and such...

A policy I disagree with, just for the record. Even if it takes a lot of work to fix, I think broken things ought to be fixed.

Others would say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Once it breaks, throw it away."

There's been a holler to call the crowner now. Considering the consensus isn't that large, and the crowner's only been open since the 27th, and forum activity is lower on the weekends anyway, I think we should at least wait until tomorrow before calling it.

Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique is not a subtrope of Cold-Blooded Torture. It's a sister trope.

Why?

Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique requires someone to be tortured for information, Cold-Blooded Torture requires them to... wait, goddammit. The description is a mess. It opens, sounds like, and is depicting in the image, torture done for little to no reason as opposed to a supertrope. We may need a Trope Talk or Special Efforts to sort these out into the proper relationship.

All I can gather from the Cold-Blooded Torture description is that it's just plain torture.

edited 31st Oct '11 3:10:44 AM by captainpat

It doesn't matter. As soon as I can I was planning on putting Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique on the cutlist because "Cold-Blooded Torture, but for information, and when the hero does it" is just too thin a difference from Cold-Blooded Torture to stand on its own.

The differences in connotation between the examples in Cold-Blooded Torture and Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique are pretty damn different, though, since almost all of the examples in Cold-Blooded Torture seem to be For the Evulz. I say the whole family needs a restructuring.

No, sorry, its not enough. The differences are nowhere near significant enough. Especially not using the standards people are using in this thread. And if this is the new standard for trope differences, we have to be consistent, remember?

No we don't. I told you, accuracy goes firstl, consistancy comes second. And, as narrative devices, they really don't serve the same purpose at all. One is basically an extreme form of Kick the Dog, the other is a trial to our heroes', and our own, sense of morality and principles, a Moral Dilemma that leaves tons of problems on its wake, and at the same time is cathartic and satisfying on a deep level for some. The emotions triggered are very different, the purposes are very different. It's not a matter of what happens in the trope, but what that happening means. It's a matter of context and purpose. It's the difference between "a trope" and "something that happens in a story".

I remain unconvinced.

*shrugs*: What about everyone else?

Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique have to Cold-Blooded Torture? if it's just torture as interrogation, can't there be overlap with Cool and Unusual Punishment?

Well, if nothing else, both Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique and Gene Hunt Interrogation Technique fail the Character Named Tropes test. We need to figure out the distinctions between them anyway.

• Cold-Blooded Torture: Torture For the Evulz
• Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique: Torture For Information
• Gene Hunt Interrogation Technique: Torture For Information, Played for Laughs

Now, the acid test: How many examples from Jack Bauer are also on Cold-Blooded Torture?

edited 31st Oct '11 8:23:14 AM by Fighteer

All of them. That's the nature of torture. Anyone who has been trained as an interrogator (USAICS, Fort Huachuca, Arizona, Class of 1987, personally) knows that torture never works, so its automatically For the Evulz.

edited 31st Oct '11 9:54:42 AM by Worldmaker

If that were so, if everyone knew that, we wouldn't be havin' Amnesty International on our ex-President's ass.

So everyone who ever tortures anyone ever is doing it because they're sadists? Even if that were true in Real Life (which I really doubt it is), that's definitely not the case in fiction. There are examples out there where torture is used simply to gain information rather than just For the Evulz.

@Fighteer: I think that breakdown sums it up; Gene Hunt Interrogation Technique is a subtrope.

edited 31st Oct '11 10:28:38 AM by JapaneseTeeth

But most writers don't seem to know this. Hence the existence of Torture Always Works. Generally, if a hero's torturing the villain it isn't just because they're sadistic, unlike with Cold-Blooded Torture.

Also, it's strange hearing you call for these to be merged when you were arguing so strongly that Gene Hunt Interrogation Technique should be separate earlier in the thread.

My recommendation: kill both of the <X> Interrogation Technique tropes and merge the examples into Cold-Blooded Torture, Torture Always Works, and Cool and Unusual Punishment, as appropriate.