Star Trek

 ^First

Bajor never wanted to join the Federation in the first place. The Federation took the space station as a condition of the treaty they signed with the Cardassians (the treaty made during TNG which gave x planets to Cardassia, and x planets to the Federation to make their border... "smoother." It's OK to not remember the episode, because you were too busy cheering that Wesley was going away for good). The plan was to make the station operational, then hand it over to the Bajorans after around 5 years if they still did not want to join the Federation. The reasoning was because Bajor was some backwater planet with no strategic or tactical value whatsoever.

When the wormhole was found, things changed...

As for "not adding much to cannon." I'll contest that. The House of Martok became the ruling Klingon house (following the death of Gowron), and Worf actually being a part of a house (Martok) rather than exiled, the same goes with his brother Kor. The new Grand Negus of Ferenginar is Rom, and the first Ferengi was admitted into Starfleet was Nog (not to mention actually adding some depth the crap that was the Ferengi during TNG).

Although, I will grant that just about everything involving the Gamma Quadrant could be removed from canon without hurting much of anything. But I don't think such a move would be worth it. I rather enjoyed the Dominion War, and thought the Jem'Hadar were rather decent additions.

And I also contend that, no matter what one thinks of Enterprise, its final season does correct some of the more major errors in consistency between TOS and TNG (the Klingon ridges, for example)...

edited 27th Feb '11 12:33:07 AM by Swish

Swish,

No, the Bajor were applying to join the Federation. Sisko was there to help them through the application process. Not all Bajor wanted to join the Federation (not religious nuts and rebels) but definitely their leadership. Or at least that was the show's premise as created by the show's producers as laid out in the "making of" book about the series.

As for Worf, he was added to DS 9 to try to save the show. Same reason they added the ship Defiant. Neither did. [Much like how "7 of 9" was the producer's attempt to try to lure back males 18-34 to Voyager ... which didn't work either ... and "7 of 9" is a perfect example of fanservice.] And due to the chaotic nature of Klingon politics, houses come and go and no one would bat an eye.

As for Ferengi, being the "Clowns of the Galaxy", their removal from canon would be merciful.

As for Star Trek: Enterprise's fourth season, the producers knew that they had only one more season and so used that to do some fanservice. And the reason they got one more season was ONLY to make it a syndicate-able TV series. They needed to hit the magical 100 episode mark to do that. Not that it became a hit in syndication (unlike The Original Series and TNG) since I don't know of a single cable TV network or local TV station that is currently airing Enterprise episodes. Same is the case with DS 9 and Voyager.

Star Trek: The Spider Galaxy http://www.TheSpiderGalaxy.com A TV show proposal.

You realise that DS 9 and Voyager both lasted four more seasons after the addition of Worf/Seven of Nine, right?

It's not over. Not yet.

The Bajor arc is the biggest Trek macguffin of all time. Why are they even bothering with this mudball at the edge of space? Obviously, it's a trade center but we never see Bajor participating in that process at all.

It was a writer's ploy to put Sisko on the frontier where Starfleet rules couldn't reach.

I love DS 9, though I would've handled the Bajor stuff differently. I love how for four years, Sisko never advances an inch in recruiting Bajor, and then when the signing day finally comes he busts up the ceremony by ranting like a crazy man. And he keeps his post??

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Sy Fy. Enterprise is on at 5 or 6pm EST, usually every day (depending on if they're doing some various marathon). Voyager used to be on Spike (same with DS 9), though I couldn't say with any certainty if either (Voyager or DS 9) are still active...

I don't think you realize that Bajor's leadership (from the beginning of the series straight to the end) was the religious nuts and rebels... Bajor's military wanted to join the Federation, but they tended to defer to the Vedeks and Kai, who controlled all the power on Bajor. Yes, Sisko was put in place in an attempt to ensure Bajor joined the Federation. But Bajor really wanted to be left alone (they weren't a space-faring race when Cardassia conquered them). Bajor (specifically Kai Winn) eventually came around to wanting to join the Federation (with the Emissary's guidance), but Sisko stopped that from happening (and Kai Winn ultimately never forgave Sisko for convincing her to support joining the Federation, then creating a public spectacle out of the situation, as the Emissary, to keep Bajor from joining).

Also as Medicus said, the claim that neither Worf, the Defiant, nor Seven of Nine helped DS 9 and Voyager is ludicrous, if only because both series lasted an additional 4 seasons after their creation. The Defiant was added in season 3 of DS 9, Worf in season 4. The show lasted 7 seasons...

edited 3rd Mar '11 10:57:29 PM by Swish

I watched all 3 seasons of TOS in under 3 weeks, then proceeded to do it again. My brain melted a little bit, but it was totally worth it.

As for the whole Kirk or Picard deal, it's more or less of which series you started with.

I actually enjoyed much of Voyager and Enterprise. Granted, both series had a higher-than-the-Trek-average number of crap episodes, but when they were good, they were fucking awesome. Maybe it's just me; I spent my seventh through eleventh years of life watching TNG, DS 9, and Voyager almost every night before bed, and I was an extremely happy ten-year-old when Enterprise debuted (a series from which I've only seen parts of the first two seasons, before everyone says it got better). Then again, I am incredibly easy to please with my entertainment (a more cynical interpretation would be that I have a greater tolerance for crap), so I, as a rule, tend to like things that get panned by the fandom (every fandom, not just Star Trek- I'm the guy who loved Harry Potter's epilogue, enjoys the Star Wars prequels, and thinks that Pokemon gets better with every generation).

https://www.facebook.com/emileunmedicatedanduncut

I'd like it more if they'd meet more aliens that are actually alien as opposed to "the facial prosthesis of the week".

Don't you try anything, you baked good you.

Rubber forehead or not, it's not easy making a person look truly alien. ENT tried mixing it up with the Xindi, but even those guys were pretty sad. The Sphere Builders looked pretty good, however.

Ironically the only person I find tolerable on ENT is T'Pol. I'm not even sure why. She fails as Miss Fanservice (why not Hoshi instead? It's not like she's busy), none of her behavior makes sense (why does a Vulcan need to shoot up drugs to experience emotions?). I just think she's unfairly scapegoated. That show had bigger problems.

edited 4th Mar '11 9:16:43 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Kirk and Picard are both awesome, but for different reasons.

Just saw "Lonely Among Us" (first season TNG) and there actually are some alien aliens, albeit humanoid ones. I'm guessing they blew most of their prosthetic and makeup budget on that episode — "Code of Honor" had aliens that were just black, for God's sake. No head ridges or anything. Some pretty Unfortunate Implications there.

Now that I mention it, "Lonely Among Us" had some pretty bad Unfortunate Implications. Picard basically dies but comes back as a transporter backup or something. And there's the whole "oh, we're so much more superior than those barbarian twentieth century humans" stick Roddenberry keeps using. Thank God for Q.

Oh yeah, a chick with botox'd lips, a boy's haircut, and a ridiculous high-heeled catsuit on a fucking starship.

So fucking hot.

ಠ_ಠ

It's not over. Not yet.

This is how I've always felt about the Kirk/Picard debate myself, so kudos good sir.

To throw in my two cents, while I grew up with TNG and TOS with a little DS 9 on the side, and love 'em all, DS 9 is far and away my favorite. Even if it did rip off Babylon 5, it was still a fantastic show. TNG has some great stuff, but it can be mind-numbingly boring way too often for my taste. TOS is always enjoyable to watch in one way or another, but I still think DS 9 is the best of the franchise. Best arcs, best supporting character (Garak), best villain (Dukat), great writing, the works. I kinda dig how the show dealt with the darker side of the Federation and the people in it; even if you don't like it, it still added considerable depth to the Trek verse as a whole.

edited 4th Mar '11 6:27:59 PM by rbx5

I'll turn your neocortex into a flowerpot!

For DS 9 the whole ordeal with Bajor was a humanitarian effort at first; they were to help them recover from the Cardassian Occupation. The prospect of them joining the Federation was always there but it didn't actually show up until the 5th season, when Bajor made an official request and Sisko stopped the process because of the looming Dominion war.

For Worf, Seven-of-Nine and the Defiant being rating stunts, each worked in their own way but Seven was a double-edge sword. She ended up as probably the most well-rounded character and was a Star-Making Role for Jeri Ryan (who is probably the the most active former Star Trek actor, even without having to say "Hey, I was on StarTrek"), but she absolutely dominated the storylines and was probably single-handedly the reason Chakotay, Neelix and Kim had almost nothing to do (Neelix wasn't nearly as insufferable in the early seasons; he originally had a devious streak and great with communicating with local merchants, later on he was mostly the obnoxious guy that no one really liked.)

As for the rubber foreheads, they ran into a lot of problems with just doing that as well because not all actors can perform under makeup. The actual instructions for creating the look of the Bajorans were "We have a very pretty girl, please don't make her ugly." That's why they just have the flared nose bridge, and why the Trills got spots instead of the original forehead ridges (The difference between a one-off character and a series regular).

One of DS 9's strengths was having fewer alien species to juggle. We can selectively focus on one race and actually give them distinction.

That said, the Bajorans are the least interesting race on the show, which is a big handicap when the whole plot revolves around them. True, the Ferengi never evolved beyond 'corporate hobbits', and the Cardassians are no better, but at least those guys were represented by many individuals with varying motivations. The Bajorans are all pious. That's about it.

I'm a skeptical squirrel

On the contrary, the Bajorans were pious but they also represented the nationalist independence groups that overthrew authoritarian colonialist rule, and the challenges said groups had in forming stable and effective governments. While they were certainly led my their religion a great deal, it did not form the entirety of their existence, nor were they simply a race with its own hat like Vulcans and Ferengi were portrayed.

"Thorough preparation must lead to success. Neglect nothing."

No the problem was really just that they had some really boring characters. Oh look, it's a guy Kira knew from the resistance who is a generally good, principled man and who...snore.

^ And then they die. Every Bajoran of consequence kicks the bucket, without leaving enough of an impression to be missed.

No, I found each of the Bajorans to be pills, Winn included. It wasn't until she hooked up with Dukat that Winn loosened up and gained a personality.

edited 26th Mar '11 8:02:35 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Channel Eleven in Australia is re-airing TNG.

It should have been named Star Trek: Jean-Luc Picard & Friends, also Q.

Seriously, Patrick Stewart and John De Lancie make the show.

edited 27th Mar '11 12:30:58 AM by Medicus

It's not over. Not yet.

Yeah, Bajorans weren't as fun as the Cardassians, where most smaller roles were at least somewhat memorable.

I was always disappointed we didn't see any secular Bajorans. I mean even after the discovery of the wormhole aliens, you could still have those on Bajor still believing that they aren't divine beings. Would have made for an interesting contrast to someone like Kira, especially if agnostic/atheist citizens were attempting to move the provisional government away from a religious influence.

But no, it seemed like everyone either worshiped the prophets, worshiped the pah-wraiths, or were Leeta.

How pious was Ro Laren anyway?

Winn was a bitch. When she met Dukat, she turned into a bitch with a hunger for cock. Seeing them make out is unadulterated squick.

Don't you try anything, you baked good you.

Mildly. But by contrast to the super atheist Enterprise crew, she could've been the f****** pope. Of course, she had the excuse of showing up before the Bajorans were fleshed out. See the article Planet of Copyhats - she pretty much launched Religion as the Bajoran hat, even if she was rather mellow about it by Bajoran standards.

By Bajoran standards?

Nearly all the Bajorans who associate themselves with a military (be it Starfleet, the resistance, or the Bajoran military) seem to have the same temperament about their religion as Ensign Ro.

None of them would truly go against their religion... But they all did seem to be more willing to bend aspects of the teachings that didn't really work in real life.

Edit:Granted, Kira does, at times, demand her religion be followed rather than be pragmatic about it... But I was under the impression that had more to do with the religious leaders knowing what she's saying... and being pragmatic would end up getting removed from her post or worse.

edited 27th Mar '11 10:41:26 AM by Swish

The list of Bajoran characters associated with the military/starfleet who are more than bit parts is a short, short one.

EDIT: That divide also seems to stem from the fact that there was two ways to resist the occupation: Join the resistance, or be a monk (as Bajoran religion was made illegal). Whichever you went to depended on how snuggly you wore the hat, so to speak.

EDIT: Even then, Kira seems to vary depending on the author. Look at Accession, where another Emissary shows up. Kira's not exactly the first in line to resist the changes he orders. Kira outright says it is not her place to question the Emissary.

edited 27th Mar '11 11:08:28 AM by Ghilz

I'm not sure how that helps your point... I mean, the list of Bajorans period who are more than bit parts is a short, short one.

I can only think of 6 off of the top of my head. Kira, Vedek Bareil, Leeta, Ensign Ro, Kai Winn, and Kai Opaka.

Three are extremely religious (because two are Kais, and one was on the path to become one before he took his name from consideration). Leeta is an unknown, Ro is religious but seems pragmatic... and Kira is religious but waffles between zealotry and pragmatism.

edited 27th Mar '11 11:21:41 AM by Swish