Tales Series

It's love or hate.

In that poll that was held a while ago, it was voted to have the best story in the entire franchise so there's that.

I mean, I like it. I think it has some problems here and there, but it’s still very good.

Mind you, I don’t really have another complete Tales experience to compare it to. I’ve only played a bit of Symphonia so far, and I’ve only watched a Let’s Play of Vesperia that I never finished (although I’ll remedy this with the Switch release).

Abyss remains my favorite Tales Series games and definitely ranks up there in my overall list.

I'd probably say Destiny could do with a 3D remake but one, that meansmore Leon Magnus and christ. Two, they'd have to recast Rutee because Yuka Imai retired as I posted not too long ago and I dunno who'd be good a replacement.

Allow me to respond to these disagreements about Abyss' quality with the good taste and maturity you've come to expect from me.

Nuh uh, y'all are wrong.

I shouldn't knock what I haven't played, but just from what I know from other sources I have a feeling I'll agree with this when I do get around to playing Abyss.

He just becomes a whinging nonce and lose all of his edge.

Luke deserved a proper character arc instead of getting brute forced into being a nice guy.

He did have an arc. He started off as a jerk but, thanks to interacting with and learning from Tear, he started becoming nicer and a more respectable person. Then he reunited with Van who basically just hammered the reset button by telling Luke everything he wanted to hear and he became a raging douchenozzel and this led to him getting a lot of people killed. After that and having the entire party call him out for his shit, he finds out that's he just a replica and proceeds to fall into a coma. During this magical coma, he sees the party sans Tear and Guy basically go "Luke was a real piece of shit" and slowly comes to realize that he was a real piece of shit. When he wakes up, he goes to Tear and promises that he'll change for the better and cuts his hair to symbolize this from that point on. Luke's personality effectively goes back to what it was before he reunited with Van and he works from there.

For the rest of the game, Luke's making a conscious effort to be a better person. He doesn't always succeed as there are times when he slips back into his old haughty attitude but the effort is made and is obvious. He also then has a couple of other character arcs due to his status as a replica, among other things.

Let me rephrase: He should have an arc that was predicated on not deciding to be a better person because he accidentally sank a city and then starts saying things like "I guess I should just never be happy."

Luke's gradual coming out of his shell in the first act is fantastic and it's a testament to the strength of his character that it involves being surrounded by assholes like Anise, Tear and Jade.

And I fundamentally disagree that Luke was a "real piece of shit." He was spoiled, haughty, and a jerkass, except the game basically jumps up and down justifying his behaviour every step of the way to the point where it becomes impossible to hate him for it, and even at his worst he still cared for Ion and strove to become stronger under Guy's tutelage so he wouldn't let his asshole companions down after he, a civilian who was teleported halfway across the world with an assassin, killed someone in self defense.

Also, the thing that kickstarts Luke's radical change in character? Literally not his fault.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 13th 2018 at 5:17:39 AM

You're right that all of Luke's actions before reuniting with Van are justified but he's also not a real piece of shit then. He only becomes one after Van hammers the reset button on his character development and then he starts acting like a total jackass toward all of his friends with absolutely no justification. Then he refused to take responsibility for all of those deaths despite the fact that it totally was his fault since all he never bothered talking to anyone and telling them what's going on. Even if they failed to avert the disaster, that would have alleviated things somewhat since an effort was made.

I also disagree with you about Jade and Tear being assholes.

I know what Mr. Badguy is going for and he's right.

Guy knew Van wasn't to be trusted but didn't question him concerning Luke anyways, Jade had figured out Luke was a replica but kept silent because "too much work" as he later makes clear later, the princess who I was never much of a fan of knew about what Luke and Van were doing and blackmailed her way into the party, Anise was a mole.

Plus its kinda hard to take responsibility for something when you were brainwashed the moment you were born to go berserk at the statement of "Foolish Replica Luke".

Brainwashing is an extremely thin line concerning responsibility. An he had an extra helping of Indoctrination by Van hrowing up too.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 13th 2018 at 3:08:05 AM

I found Abyss to be mediocre and don't understand why so many people think it's the best. Hence, my views tend to get a bit warped and more negative than they would be in a total vacuum. Sorry about that. I just find the party as a whole very hard to care about, much less to like, and the amount of backtracking gets pretty absurd.

But then, you don't need to agree with me, I have some pretty backwards views when it comes to Tales; Tempest is to me one of the best in terms of story despite the Obvious Beta gameplay.

I think people tend to demonize Anise too much.

I personally still like Abyss if only because of characters I like (Guy/Luke/Ion/Jade). Jade I st least understand since he's clearly a sociopath and so he has very lackkng sense of right and wrong.

We demonize her more than enough. Ill demonize her parents too as bad parents who should never had had a child with the way they live.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 13th 2018 at 3:19:21 AM

x5 I think it's kinda funny that you call the group his friends because other than Guy they're complete pricks to him. Luke has no reason not to hate, in order:

• The assassin who tried to kill his beloved mentor and eventually starts to show him nominal kindness.

• His childhood friend who blackmails herself onto the team.

• The sociopath who delights in making him miserable.

• Anise.

Also of course Luke is denying his guilt in Akzeriuth. It literally just happened and he took part in killing an entire city. He's not denying responsibility because he's a bad person, he's denying responsibility because the weight of what just happened hasn't sunk in yet; literally as soon as the cast stops harping on him about how much of a jerk he is he breaks down in tears because he thinks it's his fault.

Also also Jade is a fucking shitheel. I hate him so much and Akzeriuth is more his fault than Luke's. Whenever the smarmy prick started lecturing someone I wanted to punch him.

Like, everyone in the party just kind of smiled and waved as Luke went off with Van. They let a seven year old with a big red button for a nuke go off with his creepy uncle he's been raised to unconditionally love and respect and bring the likewise childlike pope along for the ride.

That's not even an exaggerated metaphor. That is literally a descriptor of what happens in Akzeriuth.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 13th 2018 at 7:24:37 AM

Anise deserves the hate, she's a hypocrite and a moron and a jerk. Her parents also deserve hatred.

Edited by PhiSat on Sep 14th 2018 at 11:41:37 AM

Yay. Let’s talk about how awful Anise is again.

I love repeating this argument.

Apologies for this, but there’s nothing left to say about Anise really.

She’s Alicia and Rose to me: a Dead Horse Trope, and she came first too.

...Most of stuff like this just completely goes over my head since Phantasia and Destiny are the only games I have finished.

You need to use You Tube right away my friend.

I mean, I have seen a few random boss battle videos of games like Symphonia or Graces. But I kinda want to experience some of those games by myself.

...Anise is my favorite character in Abyss after Guy, and I always felt like the hate she gets is absurdly overblown.

Which isn't to say that she is undeserving of it, mind. I just feel it's gone out of hand.

Unfortunately for me, I haven't played Abyss in years and barely remember the overall story arc, let alone everyone's individual character arcs, so I can't really argue my point against popular opinion. I've debated playing my 3DS Abyss game to brush up on it, but I've got too much other, actually new shit to play (like Graces). Plus Tales games always run long for me. Plus I've gotten the feeling that I don't like Abyss as much as I thought.

While I disagree with Badguy's opinions on Luke and co, I do agree with the sentiment that everyone in Abyss (except mayve Guy) is pretty much a jerk/asshole to some degree, just at varying levels (and, barring early game Luke at his worst moments, none of them are such jerks that they deserve hate, IMO). Like, Abyss is the only game in the series where I didn't get the feeling that I was playing with a cast of True Companions, even by the end of it. Though I don't know how to explain it (maybe I should just replay Abyss one of these days).

...Anyways, as far as possible remakes go, I want a new Legendia. I love the game (it's my favorite after Berseria), love the music, and Grune is probably my favorite Tales character in the franchise, but I always feel like not enough people gave it a real chance. Granted, the game has some issues, which is why I think it's one of the titles that could benefit the most from a remake.

...Although I mostly just want more Grune...

Well, what happens in Akzeriuth is that everyone was going off to do things about the current problems and Luke, who was utterly useless in the situation got pulled away by Van while everyone else was busy and then blew up the city. That he was brainwashed when it came time to blow up the city (remember that while he was groomed by Van, the only actual brainwashing was the hyperresonance trigger) and no one in the party knew Van had a means to erase a city doesn't change that he did ultimately follow Van to some suspicious place that Ion explicitly didn't like and recognized as where their other enemies took him to. It's perfectly understandable why Luke did it, but it doesn't change the fact that his blind trust of Van in the face of multiple different veins of supsicion made the destruction of Akzeriuth a cakewalk. Everyone only got mad at Luke after he immediately jumped on blaming Van when the subject of Akzeriuth came up, which while accurate is a complete 180 in temperament from the uncompromising asshole who wouldn't listen to anything negative about Van.

Also, just because we're given reasons for why Luke is the way he is doesn't mean he's not a giant cunt during those times, it just means we know why he's an asshole and he has some sympathetic factors that show that for all his douchiness he's not purely an asshole. He makes notable improvements but as mentioned by others they get negated by Van partway through due to his manipulations.

As for the party, they are not meant to be nice people, especially given that they all start off as allies of opportunity rather than having any prior contact or relationships. They're all generally kinda bad people to begin with, but they're more functional and civil in general. Only Tear and Guy aren't too bad, and then Tear is the second most directly harsh with Luke (which is why he becomes a nicer person in the first half of the first arc before Van starts feeding him hella bullshit), while Guy is secretly planning on murdering him for a decent portion of the game and is harboring information about Van (though if I remember right he only knows that Van is currently planning on some kinda vengeance for Hod and doesn't know anything about Vans more specific plans).

Jade is essentially a sociopath and while he's definitely harsh with Luke, as far as I know he didn't know Luke was capable of hyperresonance and even if he did, I strongly doubt Luke would have listened to him anyways given all prior evidence of Luke explicitly denying other peoples info. Jade explicitly wrestles with the fact that he has enabled horrible things to happen first due to his own curiosity running rampant when he created cloning in his youth and then through inaction because he didn't feel explaining things would be worth the effort, and his character arc involves learning from Luke about empathy and properly taking action for his past crimes.

Natalia basically has a single short dungeon where she's particularly troublesome and that's only because she has to blackmail Luke off of information she ought to have shared but promised not to to get into the party because she didn't realize the gravity of it. Then she's like Luke-lite in terms of shitty attitude before she's called out for being kind of a bitch and adjusts her behavior. Her arc is distinct from the redemption theme and has more to do with the theme of personal meaning and Luke and Asch's nature as replicas, so there's less on her here.

Anise's arc comes much later and is essentially a variant of Luke's with her being manipulated via emotional blackmail (though she's aware she's being manipulated) but due to her manipulator being one of the most influential people in the world, she can't really get help externally without risking her parents lives. She's expressly more hostile to other trusting people due to projecting her own guilt, believing that if she can't even be trusted, why should other people be? Only after getting Ion killed and realizing there was a loss she feared even more than her parents deaths (basically her Akzeriuth moment, only this time the party is much closer, so rather than fracturing due to this, Luke forgives her and helps her move forward while everyone else is following Luke's lead), she decides that she'll live to honor the memory of Ion by trying to reform the church like he wanted.

Edited by Alfric on Sep 14th 2018 at 12:19:22 PM

Goddamn, dude. TLDR! TLDR!

Okay I'll try my best to respond to this. Luke has no reason to distrust Van because A. he's been raised from birth to do so and B. the only people giving him shit about it are the assholes he's forced to associate with, which would make any rational person dig their heels in more. He's a literal child being manipulated by a seemingly trusting adult. There's no context to justify why the blame is on Luke anymore than it is on Ion, or god forbid Jade who could have stepped up and done anything.

I'm fine with the cast not being automatically friends, that's great! The problem is that they're all horribly unlikable as a substitute for complexity. Guy is the only character I liked out of them because he recognizes his flaws and mistakes on his own and quietly deals with them for Luke's sake (and on a side note, I think it's hilarious that Tear bitches out Luke for assuming that there's some deep dark secret that Guy wants to kill him for and it's just because he's been that annoying a person, only for it to turn out that, no really, Guy does have a deep dark secret and Tear never apologizes for being a bint).

Yyyyyyeah the game was not very good at making me like Tear at all. I ended up loving Natalia far more, warts and all.

And jeez, the game can't even do an ambiguous ending right!