Lord of the Rings

Yeah, I was commenting how the only physical description we get of Sauron is Gollum's. And the only thing he is able to describe (despite, again, having been tortured by him) is that Sauron still has a missing digit. But that detail suffices: everyone knows this is truly Sauron. Nothing Is Scarier vibes.

Edited by Gaon on Jun 10th 2021 at 4:57:37 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

I never pictured Sauron having a physical body,he's always this disembodied dark shape in my mind's eye

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Oh, my bad, Gaon.

Optimism is a duty.

Kenji Kamiyama (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex) is directing a Lord of the Rings anime feature with Warner Bros. Animation and New Line Cinema.

It's known as “The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim.”

Intriguing... I wonder how it'll turn out!

Oof, I'd forgotten that dialogue. That is pretty horrifying!

(Which is perhaps one of the reasons that Sauron—despite spending so much time off-screen—is still an effective antagonist: there's a distinct sense in the test that you dealing with a being powerful and terrifying.

"This is how bad he is when you're just getting bits and pieces and scraps of Sauron. Imagine what it's like to actually have him in front of you...")

I will say that I rather like his manifestation in The Hobbit. In particular, when he has Gandalf at his... it's hard to say "mercy" when talking about Sauron. :P When he has Gandalf under his thumb, let's say, the effect used feels (to me, at least) like something overwhelming; like a psychic crushing of any thought of outside aid. That, I think, was well done in the movie.

On another note, thinking of the upcoming Amazon adaptation, I've rather hoped for a while that we actually get to see Sauron being given that name. I doubt that it'll be quite as I imagine—I have a somewhat-specific idea of how I might do it—but I'd like to see it!

My Games & Writing

Helm Hammerhand is one of my favorite characters in the entire Legendarium (he's a guy who downed enemies with his bare fists and who Died Standing Up because of how awesome he is and became the Terror Hero boogeyman of the Dunlendings) so I'm very excited.

Edited by Gaon on Jun 10th 2021 at 12:32:31 PM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Yeah, hopefully it'll be good.

Technically speaking, there is only one God in Tolkien's works. The Valar resemble a traditional Nordic pantheon in some respects, but they are clearly higher-level angels rather than gods. Sauron is merely a fallen angel, and not the highest order of angel either. The fact that he is so nearly able to completely dominate the world all on his own is a testament to just how powerful a "mere angel" can be, especially in an age where most of the other beings of his power level are no longer active in the world. The Istari, Sauron, and the Balrog are all that are left of that level of being, and Gandalf is the last of them still standing when he returns to the West at the end of the book.

No, the title character never appears "on stage", but I think Sauron is all the more frightening for that. Tolkien knew well that leaving things vague is sometimes more effective than spelling them out. The Balrog is more fearsome because of this as well. What is the Balrog, really? We're never really clear on what it looks like or whether it even has wings or not, and it never speaks a word.

But we do know that it wears fuzzy slippers. ;P

My Games & Writing

I think the Balrogs are another sort of fallen angel but far weaker than Sauron, more on par with Gandalf. There used to be more of them, after all, as they fought in the War of the Jewels under Morgoth, and Durin's Bane is supposed to be the last, not counting the one that was in Shadow of War that's not really very canon.

Edited by theLibrarian on Jun 15th 2021 at 4:47:28 AM

The impression I got from the text is that the Balrog was entirely bestial,it was in effect Chaotic Evil so it's weird to imagine a Balrog talking,as for the wings thing,from how it's described it definately had wings now it has flames

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The Balrogs presumably are intelligent, being corrupted Maiar. They're basically beings on the same level as Gandalf and the other Wizards. That's why Gandalf has to unleash more of his true power to face Durin's Bane and still died in the process (though he came back as Gandalf the White).

Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2021 at 9:28:10 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

I suppose they are intelligent enough that Durin's bane countered Gandalf's spell,despite being completely silent (literally Tolkin has said they were completely silent)

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Edit: partially 'd but hey ho.

Balrogs are certainly something of a mixed bag, at one point there was at least one (Gothmog possibly?) who served as a field commander of armies under Morgoth so presumably had to have the ability to communicate with "lesser" beings and at least a rudimentary grasp of strategy/tactics.

But then Durin's Bane never speaks a word during the confrontation at Moria (unless he and Gandalf had a little chat as they fell which was never mentioned) and seems very much a mindless brute.

The latter is obviously the one who appears on screen and while it looks amazing even today it does reduce Balrogs in pop culture to basically "big demon thing" when they are more accurately fallen angels. I'm not sure off the top of my head of Tolkien ever specified how tall/big they were either or whether that was pure Jackson.

Edited by jakobitis on Jun 21st 2021 at 2:43:10 PM

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

The movie version does show intelligence even if it doesn't speak. It doesn't just shoot fire or anything, but instead forms the flame into weapons like a sword and a whip.

Disgusted, but not surprised

The description in the novel says it's man height but "greater". I take greater to mean that it's got a very threatening presence, possibly through magic, but it's not much taller than an average human.

Actually it’s “man-shape but greater” and so I think greater in size is a proper interpretation.

But still I’d say Jackson’s Balrog is oversized, since it can barely fit its foot on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm while in the book it approaches to face Gandalf squarely, at which time it “drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.” Are these physical wings, or just shadowy extensions? It’s not incredibly clear; it depends on how much the shadow itself is part of the Balrog’s form.

“Shadow and flame” are the motifs repeated over and over regarding the thing. It breathes fire from its “nostrils” and has a flaming mane. Jackson’s interpretation seems just as well supported by the text as any other, besides being large. Oh, and the horns on its head are not in the text at all. Jackson wasn’t the first to think of them, though. I just finished the NPR dramatization of Fellowship, the cover art of which depicts the Balrog very similarly as the film, but with a wider, fanged mouth, translucent wings, and armored shoulders.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Jun 21st 2021 at 12:42:04 PM

How big was the Balrog? The bridge is described as "a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet." It's narrow enough that it can only be crossed single file, so it's perhaps 4-5' wide at the most. Gandalf stands in the middle of the span when the Balrog reaches the edge. The Balrog "stepped forward slowly on to the bridge" draws itself up to a great height, with its wings spread from wall to wall and then it attacks Gandalf with its sword.

Gandalf is roughly 25 feet from the end of the bridge and the Balrog has enough reach from where it is standing near the edge of the bridge to attack Gandalf with its sword. That sounds like the Balrog is pretty big to me, depending on how many steps and what distance you think "stepped forward slowly on to the bridge" involves.

It seems like the Balrog was not even fully standing on the bridge when it attacked Gandalf with its sword, since the Balrog "leaps full upon the bridge" after the failed sword attack, and that's when Gandalf smites the bridge with his staff and it cracks right at the Balrog's feet. Gandalf was basically waiting for the Balrog to step fully on to the bridge before he broke it. Half of the bridge falls, and half the bridge remains, with Gandalf standing on the edge of the remaining half, a pace from the middle point of the span.

So, the Balrog was big enough to attack across most of a 25-foot span, but not so big it couldn't fall down a 25-foot gap when the bridge broke beneath it.

Edited by Bense on Jun 21st 2021 at 11:26:20 AM

You read more carefully than I did. The Balrog can’t be too much smaller than in the film, but I still wonder about its ability to “leap full upon the bridge” if each foot is just as wide as the span. But hey, supernatural Maia balance.

if the Balrog had wings why did it need to jump on to the bridge

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IIRC there's often been a lot of debate whether the "wings" were literal or figurative. Tolkien's writing style suggests both are legitimately valid options.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

The first instance of wing is saying shadow and flame spread out behind it like wings. The text later refers to wings but I take it to mean the metaphorical ones previously described and not literal wings.

A better question might be, “If it has wings, how did Gandalf beat it by dropping it down a hole?” (Yes, that was just the start of their fight, but he still got it away from the Fellowship successfully.) Either the wings aren’t functional—possibly because they’re just part of its shadowy aura—or it doesn’t have enough room to use them in the pit: another argument for its being very large.

But then again, they fight their way from the depths of the earth all the way into the open air, and it still doesn’t take to the sky. (In the film. I don’t have the text to hand at the moment, but I don’t think the fight is described much one way or the other.)

If Durin's Bane did have functional wings, it was probably too busy fighting Gandalf while they were falling to focus on flying to safety.

And by the time they get back into the open air, Durin's Bane's flames had been extinguished, reducing it to a slimy (but still deadly) thing.

Edited by M84 on Jun 22nd 2021 at 8:45:43 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

If balrogs had wings, they were entirely non-functional, considering how often the creatures fall to their death from high places. Also, the reason Morgoth invented winged drakes was so he could have an air force - balrogs were ground troops.