Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

I assume it's referring to the Mass Effect 3 fan theory: "The ending is just the player character under the villains' Mind Control!"

Basically, the ending of ME 3 was so terrible and out of sync with the rest of the series that many fans willingly allowed themselves into a fan theory (that admittedly have a lot of grounding in the universe logic) that the hero completely failed their mission and became mind controlled by the Big Bads. And try as they might to make it reality, it still meant the game either ended on a Bad Ending regardless of anything else, a Non-Ending, or the company had willingly put in a terrible ending only to sell the *REAL* ending as DLC later.

It also goes without saying that, once the company released an extended ending in an attempt to correct the problems, Indoctrination Theory was never made canon and a lot of the bad aspects of the endings were polished up and doubled down on instead. It's also worth mentioning the ending was so terrible and such a flame war that this site banned the topic ages ago, though that rule has become far more lax since the game released over a decade ago and most people can have a civil conversation about it.

The idea of "Bran was the TRUE VILLAIN THE WHOLE TIME!" is a fan theory attempt to rectify the issues of the ending with, while admittedly good, ideas that make even less sense in the execution than the just bad ending we got. If "Bran is True Big Bad" is endgame, then there's no logic in closing the series as we do.

Personally, I see it as a "Denial" phase; grasping at straws to try and make the ending some how good or at least more tolerable.

Most people who subscribe to either fan-theory will readily admit that there's no way it's the author's intention / canon. It's just one of those things where headcanon will always be superior to actual canon precisely BECAUSE it's not canon; because the creator never had a chance to fuck up the headcanon theory with execution.

Imagination > reality, basically.

Fair. Though I have 100% met fans who refused the idea of it being headcanon at all; ones that said Indoctrination Theory was totally the intention and canon, you guys.

Admittedly, those instances were also nearly a decade ago so who knows if those fans still exist but still...

(Mass Effect 3 released in early 2012, and the Extended Ending in that summer. I personally found those endings quite sensible, but I played the trilogy for the first time all in one go and in 2015, so I cannot vouch for those who had spent years invested and expecting something else.)

I think (part of) the problem was that the players spent dozens of hours recruiting allies and bolstering their forces to defend Earth and then got slapped in the face with a choice that said "none of that stuff before mattered, only these 30 minutes of Shepard talking to The Architect". Of course, the indoctrination theory makes it matter even LESS, which goes to show the crazy things people do just to be able to justify still loving something that disappointed them immensely... Wait a minute.

Oh, and I talked to one of my friends who watched GoT back in the day and he managed to explain the shock about Ned dying a little better.

He said no one believed Ned could die because he was the most noble character in the cast and the most experienced fighter. When I tried to figure out who was meant to be the protagonist I was only looking at their roles in the story (i.e. Jon is a Naïve Newcomer thrust into unfamiliar territory and Ned isn't), instead of their personalities, and because I was told to expect subversions of convention, I was constantly analyzing the ways GoT defied or obeyed fantasy tropes, so I took Ned being a war hero as a sign he COULDN'T be the protagonist because it wouldn't be possible for him to grow or take any more levels in badass during the story, as opposed to people who were immersed in the story and not thinking about that who just thought someone with that level of experience would probably only die in a big, badass Final Battle and were surprised at how easily and quickly he was offed.

So, in hindsight I get why people were thinking "you mean the only genuinely heroic character in this cast of villains and morally-ambiguous people is just going to get beheaded at the hands of a little brat? Yeah, right".

Edited by DBZfan102 on Sep 27th 2020 at 2:34:59 PM

See, I started reading Game of Thrones after the show was announced but before it was released, and the first impression I had of what it would be like was the iconic image of Ned on the throne◊, looking tired and defeated.

I assumed his arc wouldn't be the hero's journey of a young warrior taking levels in badass and rising to greatness, but the downfall of a good man forced to make more and more compromises, each of them seeming necessary and unavoidable at the time, rising to power not because he craves it but because it seems like the only way, until he no longer recognizes himself as the good man he used to be.^note You know, the arc they tried to give Dany and failed miserably.

So I was as shocked as anyone when he died.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 29th 2020 at 7:56:57 AM

See, I never read the books. I assume it would have been much more difficult to think Ned wasn't the protagonist had I seen he had the majority of chapters to himself and several story threads left to resolve when he died, unlike in the show.

But it's all moot now. Ned wasn't the protagonist in the end. Instead we got Jon, who for better or worse was a much more traditional protagonist.

Edited by DBZfan102 on Sep 28th 2020 at 2:55:38 PM

Can someone take a look at this TLP and provide some context as to how Bronn fits the concept, if he even does? He was mentioned as an example in the TLP's previous incarnation, but no real context was provided, and I never watched the show so I'm not sure how, or even if, he fits.

Bronn fits inasmuch as he's 100% willing to do the dirty work for whoever is paying the most.

In another sense he's also a very sharp operator in his own right and knows a few secrets so you want him on your side to a) learn useful information and b) do he's not telling someone else about yours.

That page pretty much describes Bronn, at least prior to the final season. I would not be surprised if he was the first example, with the proposed trope modeled after him.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Dec 8th 2020 at 10:04:27 AM

Isn't he more of an example of a Token Evil Teammate rather than a new trope?

He's both, technically. As per the description of the new trope it's noted there's overlap with other tropes depending on the characters morality.

Calling him a Token Evil Teammate seems a bit weird when he's aligned with the Lannisters for most of the story.

Yeah. He's objectively less evil than the head of the Lannisters (whoever that may be, Joffrey, Tywin, or Cersei) or their Dragon (The Mountain).

Me, it feels weird calling him the "token" evil teammate when people like Gregor, Sandor, and the Bloody Mummers are employed by the Lannisters.

Yeah, if anything Bronn could almost qualify as a Token Good Teammate next to these people. And Bronn is a shameless, unapologetical cutthroat and killer for hire.

Says a lot about the Lannisters^^

Edited by Forenperser on Dec 9th 2020 at 7:07:57 PM

The main reason audiences might give Bronn a bit more slack is because he hangs out with Tyrion for a large part of the story, but it worth remembering that most of Tyrion's circle were some flavour of questionable character - and Bronn outright tells Tyrion (and the audience) that he's perfectly fine with killing babies, if the price is right.

Bronn's an amoral bastard, but he's our amoral bastard, basically.

To be fair, even Sandor looks relatively good next to a lot of the people the Lannisters employ due to not being a bloody psychopath.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 9th 2020 at 7:31:34 PM

Tyrion's whitewashing helps make him better as well, you dont get things like Bronn being implied to dispose of a body by providing "mystery meat" for some soup on Flea Bottom.

The thing with Tyrion is, even if he was not sadistic and tried to rein his family in a bit, until Season 4 he still helped securing Joffrey's reign over Westeros. Sometimes it's easy to forget that.

Because it was still his family, right or wrong. He pretty much stopped giving a shit in the books when he learned the truth about Tysha.

And the TV!Tyrion is something of an Adaptational Nice Guy compared to his more vengeful and bitter novel self. Not that he doesn't have good reasons for it...

Heck, even Bronn is more likeable in the show for me. Yes he's going to stab you in the back for cash but the TV version seems to actually like Tyrion, he just likes money/success more. Book Bronn was only ever really in anything for purely mercenary reasons, though in his favour he was totally honest and upfront about that.

Edited by jakobitis on Dec 9th 2020 at 6:42:11 PM

Though Bronn in the books was arguably more successful as well, considering he managed to get himself a lordship after Cersei tried to have him murdered.

In the series his good fortunes kinda end with Tyrion having to flee King's Landing because first Cersei and then Jaime keep cheating him out of his earned rewards all the time.

It's no wonder he's pissed when he meets Tyrion and Jaime again in the final season.

... except he ends up as Master of Coin and Lord of the Reach. Somehow, I doubt the book version of Bronn will wind up anywhere near that successful, largely because that's one of the dumbest things in the series finale. Which is saying a lot.

Yes, which happened after he tracked down the Lannister brothers and verbally (and physically) smacked them around.

Honestly, the main problem I have with Bronn's position at the end of the series is how there was perfect setup for his question about what's double his promised rewards.

The Twins. It's basically two castles, comes with a nice bit of revenue to due being a major river crossing and is unoccupied due to the Freys having been wiped out - it also doesn't have the prestige Highgarden has, so no pissing off the remaining oldblood elites by handing it to Bronn.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 9th 2020 at 10:03:37 AM