The Order of the Stick

By the way, on the thread for this strip on the Giant's Forum, Mr. Burlew confirmed that Loki that Loki is physically incapable of honesty to anyone besides gloating to Thor.

Just in case there was any doubt about that.

Heh.

We've always seen stories about the gods enslaving mortals, but now we see the idea of mortals enslaving gods.

I've suggested the idea as something new beside God Is Evil or God Is Inept, but to see it actually happen...

The idea that they must be what their believers think them to be puts an interesting wrinkle on even the more evil actions of gods.

this raises the chicken-and-egg question: did Loki always act like that, and now his believers have made it so he can't not act like that, or did people start believing he was a dick first? if the latter, what's the story behind that? where did people get the idea he was a dick if he wasn't always a dick?

He probably just taught them that lying and scheming are the best ways to get ahead in life. Then his worshipers took this to mean that he's a chronic liar who never tells the truth except when it comes to gloating in front of his rival Thor.

^^^ The Discworld series uses the same concept, where gods are dependent on mortal belief to sustain themselves, and are shaped by that belief in return. Small Gods in particular explores this concept in depth, and is one of my favorite books in the series. It starts with the setting's stand-in for the Abrahamic god, Om, being trapped in the body of a turtle, and only able to communicate with a single lowly acolyte named Brutha despite having an entire theocratic empire in his name because Brutha is the only person in the entire empire who actually still believes in him, and isn't just following tradition and dogma.

Edited by Wryte on Aug 26th 2019 at 11:24:37 AM

Just a bit of a nitpick, the Giant has weighed in that Loki doesn't have to always lie, he just can't be honest. He can't go "Here's the situation, here's what I'm doing, here's what all the players involved are up to". When he acts, he has to do so with an ulterior motive.

I find the idea that Loki and other gods have personality traits dictated by their worshippers interesting. It makes me wonder if any have gone through alignment shifts during the billions of years they've done this.

Also this is somewhat tangential to the plot but did anyone else catch Loki's comment about half a billion people believing he acts a certain way? Is he just talking about the Northern population of the planet or the entire population? If the former then the OOTS world has a lot more people than I believed.

According to Roy's estimate, the entire world has more or less a billion people living on it. Loki is probably talking about Northen population and it wouldn't be too weird for half the world's people to live in one quater of it.

Great strip. Yep, Loki is unquestionably Chaotic Evil. I also kind of feel like last strip was leaning toward that, because Hel's cited examples of Loki's worshipers are "swindlers and cut throats", which sounds like a more morally dubious bunch than say your average fantasy gold-loving thief (i.e. Haley).

Also, I'm calling it now. I think the series will end with the Northern Pantheon being altered as a result of whatever happens to deal with the Snarl (which I expect will involve a Heroic Sacrifice by one or more characters). Hel will be replaced by either Durkon or Sigdi, who will be a benevolent psychopomp, Loki will look like his MCU version, and will be a more benevolent trickster good, and Thor will be basically the same, except now he'll have red hair.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 26th 2019 at 1:44:47 PM

If he was talking about just the North Hel's plan wouldn't make any sense with the stated numbers.

He means the world at large. Remember, just being ackwoledged to exist is also a part of what the gods need besides just direct worship.

Especially since one of the continents is in a constant state of warfare and turmoil.

Edited by Resileafs on Aug 26th 2019 at 2:44:33 PM

Please elaborate.

Hel's plan is predicated on the assumption that sole right to the 10 million or so dwarven souls will make her more powerful than any other god in the Northern Pantheon. But if that's 10 million out of half a billion, that just doesn't make sense, even if the other 490,000,000 is split between the other 24 gods in the pantheon.

Writers don't do math. Further news at eleven.

Edited by Kayeka on Aug 26th 2019 at 9:25:19 PM

But we're supposed to assume the math does work, in which event it's just easier to take it as Loki talking about the entire population of the world (and also being hyperbolic) than just of the North.

I must have blocked out the strip that explained he bet: what agreement is going on in between Hel and Loki, and why is it killing her?

Again, Roy gives an estimate that is twice as large. I don't think they are both being hyperbolic. It's also doubtful that more than a half of world population would know what Loki's customs are supposed to be — heck, Durkon didn't know much about Loki back in the Dungeon of Dorrukan.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Aug 26th 2019 at 9:32:58 PM

The Bet is interfering with Hel getting a healthy balance of what the gods need from mortals in order to survive. She's pretty malnourished right now, and if the world ends she might not be able to hang on long enough to get better in the next world.

That still doesn't address the obvious problem I mentioned. Just take it as a very rough estimate, instead of in the way that literally invalidates much of what has been going on. Because we are supposed to think that Hel's plan could work.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 26th 2019 at 2:33:22 PM

Here's the Bet; here's why it's hurting Hel.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Aug 26th 2019 at 4:07:57 AM

And here's how the numbers work.

Edited by Wackd on Aug 26th 2019 at 6:28:24 AM

Basically, what all of that boils down to is that any time fanon and canon disagree, canon wins. You might not agree with the canon, but it is the canon. Writers are under no obligation to change their stories because fans did some math and decided the writer was wrong.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 26th 2019 at 4:35:06 AM

So....Death of the Audience?

Eh, I would get much less enjoyment out of many things if I didn't blantantly ignore elements of the canon some of the times. I can stick to reality when it comes to, well, objective reality, but I see no benefit to believing one thing or another about a non-existent setting or story.

I don't see the reason to ignore it when there's an interpretation that can work with both numbers. But whatever.

Another way to look at it: stop trying to do math when that's not how it works anyway.